A Maya Diaspora

[kbs2244]

From Thurs news postitngs:

http://www.examiner.com/architecture-de ... -mountains

A Maya diaspora reaching far into the NA southeast and the basis of the Creek Indians?

[E.P. Grondine]

No - not quite.

Read my book. While there was a limited Haustecan migration to SE North America around 200 CE, that was different than the migration of the Kushita (Creeks) and other Muskogean peoples into the south east, followed by assimilation, whence this author's confusion arises. As far as the Micco Sukee go, they will tell you that they are not Kushita.

I do not trust the author's 800 CE date either, as stone was in use in construction by about 700-600 BCE. The Andaste used stone, as did other peoples. Stone constructions in Alabama (say around 300 BCE) are note worthy, and then there is later use of stone in other areas as well.

They are fascinating remains, though, and under explored and under developed as sites.

[E.P. Grondine]

No.

Both the Kushita and the Choctaw remembered Sunset Volcano's eruption.
They were living at the Three Rivers Petroglyphs area at the time and studied at Wupatki.

For RC dates for one stone construction, see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Stone_Fort_(Tennessee)

I seem to vaguely recall earlier stone constructions around 200 BCE.
The Andaste ones in Newark date around 700 BCE.

There were 16 divisions who combined to form the Cherokee people, the ani Kitani and ani Tjalagee being just two of them, and each division had its own history and origins.

The five sided structure at the author's site is matched by a six sided structure in Florence, Alabama.

The half circle construction at this site was a burial area for the worthy, as was common practice. The heights above provided a commanding view.

The author's meso-american cognates are explained by the Huastecan influences - the "Mobilian Trade Language". Same thing goes for the other "Mayan" influences the author sees.

[kbs2244]

Here is more on the dispora idea from todays news page.

This guys sees it not only in the southeast but in the southwest and Caribbean.
He says he has no connection to the first guy.

"We know the Maya were doing something similar in the American southwest at Chaco Canyon. Archaeologists have found southwestern turquois in mosaics at Chichen Itza and Mayan chocolate residue in drinking cups at Chaco Canyon. This is an overland distance of over 2,000 miles. By comparison, Florida is an overwater distance of only 450 miles. In addition, archaeologists have found Mayan jade at sites in the eastern Caribbean on the island of Antigua which is an overwater distance of 1700 miles. (See Map) Clearly, reaching Florida would have been quite easy for the Putun Maya. In fact, the Gulf Loop Current flows north past the Yucatan and goes directly to Florida thus even without advanced sailing technology one could simply float on the currents and arrive in Florida."


http://www.examiner.com/road-trip-trave ... -mountains

[Minimalist]

Archaeologists have found southwestern turquois in mosaics at Chichen Itza and Mayan chocolate residue in drinking cups at Chaco Canyon.

Would not simple commerce be a more rational explanation?

[kbs2244]

Sure.
But fermented coco is an acquired taste.
Much like modern beer.
If the Maya were not the locals, then someone must have shown up and talked the locals into trying it.

On the other hand, turquoise is just pretty.
It wouldn’t be hard to trade it for something.
Although in the Chaco Canyon area, I don’t know what that might be.

Uranium maybe?

I don’t know about turquoise in the southeast.
Neither of these accounts mention it.

[Minimalist]

But fermented coco is an acquired taste.

YOu mean the way Indians got the Europeans using tobacco?

[Cognito]

Archaeologists have found southwestern turquois in mosaics at Chichen Itza and Mayan chocolate residue in drinking cups at Chaco Canyon.

Would not simple commerce be a more rational explanation?

Sure. But fermented coco is an acquired taste. Much like modern beer. If the Maya were not the locals, then someone must have shown up and talked the locals into trying it. On the other hand, turquoise is just pretty. It wouldn’t be hard to trade it for something. Although in the Chaco Canyon area, I don’t know what that might be. Uranium maybe?

When you are discussing turquoise you are discussing the Hopi. They mined it all over the southwest as a precious trade item and their networks were extensive. Moctezuma had turquoise in his headdress identified as coming from the Halloran site in the Southern California desert (paper unpublished). Trading turquoise for chocolate, a delicacy, seems quite reasonable.

[kbs2244]

“You mean the way Indians got the Europeans using tobacco?”

I would say the tobacco thing would be easier.
I am not a smoker. Never was.
But I am told that a nicotine hit is immediate.
And you can see it in an inhalers eyes on the first puff.
But you are right about it being an acquired taste.
That is one reason I never smoked.
I believe that because of its power, the Indians considered it sacred.
But the hard drinking Europeans were soon OD-ing on it.

"When you are discussing turquoise you are discussing the Hopi"

Are you saying there is no turquoise in the southeast because that would require long distance west to east trade?
From the Hopi to Montezuma would be about the same north to south distance.
(Although I guess you could hop a coasting balsa raft for some of the trip.)
But there is a pretty good time difference him and the Maya collapse isn’t there?
The Hopi were ralitive latecomers to the area.
Were they the only ones to think it was pretty?

[E.P. Grondine]

Please excuse me from trying to clear up all of the confusion here now.

I have found out that I can upgrade my Mac mini to 1 gig memory, Tiger, and iWorks, and then turn out books with large type and plenty of big color pictures.

I did not cover the early SW in Man and Impact in the Americas, as the Hopi, Zuni, and Navajo elders will share what they want to share when they want to share it. I hope to be able to cover SE-SW relations in greater detail in the second edition.

I hope you are all having happy holidays.

[Cognito]

The Hopi were ralitive latecomers to the area.
Were they the only ones to think it was pretty?

Even though latecomers, the village of Oraibe was established prior to 1100bce, pre-dating the Aztecs, and represents the oldest continuously occupied "city" in the contiguous U.S. They were obviously kicking around the area far earlier than that, especially if you listen to what their elders have to say about their origins. I'm not saying the Hopi were the only ones mining turquoise, or were the only ones who thought it was pretty. Just saying that turquoise was their specialty.

[Minimalist]

especially if you listen to what their elders have to say about their origins.

Every culture has an origin story, though. I suspect most of them are bullshit.

[Cognito]

Every culture has an origin story, though. I suspect most of them are bullshit.

So true ... so true. Especially when a group needs to claim their superiority to those around them. However, after running some of the Hopi stories through my multi-faceted BS Meter, I've found that a few of them are difficult to dismiss. As an aside, love the story of the Comanche war party on horseback that traveled south until they encountered "little men with tails" (i.e. monkeys in the jungles of Mexico). Then again, could have been politicians.

[Minimalist]

Or lawyers.

[kbs2244]

I don’t know how many of you have been following this tempest in a teapot.
But I find it interesting.

Richard Thornton has been, for years, sniping at the established theories.
Mostly staying in the area of Ohio.
He seems to have hit a nerve in this one.

“There is nothing here to see. Move along.” ???

Check the news pages.