1491

Frank Harrist · Post by **Frank Harrist** » Sat Jun 03, 2006 6:06 am

I am currently reading 1491 by Charles C. Mann. So far it has been informative and makes a great deal of sense. Has anyone else read it? The concept that disease preceeded actual contact with many cultures is interesting and very plausible. There were probably more people in the "new world" than there were in europe until smallpox wiped out most of them. Just think of all the art and culture that was lost. How could the new world cultures have changed today's world if they hadn't been lost? He also makes the point that the human sacrifices made by the Mexica and other cultures were not so numerous when compared to the public executions practiced in europe. I thought that was interesting also. It was simply a different way of thinking.

Beagle · Post by **Beagle** » Sat Jun 03, 2006 8:36 am

Manns' book is gaining wide acceptance. It seems like a historical tragedy.
Later explorers and settlers have documented thousands of towns completely abandoned with little or no remains of the original inhabitants.

Post by **Minimalist** » Sat Jun 03, 2006 9:22 am

Wasn't there another book along those lines? Gold, Steel and Germs or something like that?

The overall concept does argue for a fairly long separation between Old World and New World. While the Eurasians were trading and warring back and forth, sharing their diseases and building up a racial immunity to them, there was no such immunity among Native Americans even though many anthropologists swear that they were from the same genetic stock as the Asians.

Oddly, though, if you want to extend the thought, European contact with Africa did not result in the same sort of widespread epidemics and depopulation. One could speculate that there was always some sort of trade/military contact along the Nile into East Africa and Arab traders operating along the East African coast would have maintained some trade routes with the interior. Enough to provide some measure of immunity?
Would be an interesting topic to explore except for the lack of written history in sub-Saharan Africa.

Frank Harrist · Post by **Frank Harrist** » Sat Jun 03, 2006 10:31 am

Mann covers that. It has to do with there being no domesticated mammalian livestock in the new world. Pigs spread a lot of it.

FreeThinker · Post by **FreeThinker** » Sat Jun 03, 2006 10:57 am

That book was named "Guns, Germs, and Steel" by Jared Diamond and was also featured on public broadcasting in a multi-part series of the same name. A very interesting hypothesis and seemingly spot on too. I recommend it highly.

An excerpt from the book can be read here:

http://www.wwnorton.com/catalog/spring99/gunsex.htm

Info on the PBS series can be found here:

http://www.pbs.org/gunsgermssteel/

Check it out, really good stuff!

Post by **Minimalist** » Sat Jun 03, 2006 12:12 pm

Thanks, F/T.

Apparently, they will be re-broadcasting in July.

Guns, Germs and Steel screens across the country on PBS from July 11 for three weeks on Monday nights at 10pm in most cities.

I'll have to make sure I see it.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sat Jun 03, 2006 2:45 pm

I am currently reading 1491 by Charles C. Mann. So far it has been informative and makes a great deal of sense. Has anyone else read it

no haven't even heard about it but given the nature of korea that isn't surprising.

Eurasians were trading and warring back and forth, sharing their diseases and building up a racial immunity to them, there was no such immunity among Native Americans even though many anthropologists swear that they were from the same genetic stock as the Asians

what would genetics have to do with it? defense against diseases usually starts with exposure and recovery.

Post by **Minimalist** » Sat Jun 03, 2006 3:28 pm

It's the "control group" concept of science which you don't like anyway but we'll keep that to other threads to give Michelle a break.

Post by **Minimalist** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 7:10 pm

Guns, Germs and Steel is supposed to be shown on PBS tonight. I guess I'll have to tear myself away from the ball game to watch it!

Frank Harrist · Post by **Frank Harrist** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 7:33 am

Damn! I missed it!

Post by **Minimalist** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 10:22 am

No you didn't...it was a lie.

They had some "ballroom dancing" thing on instead.

I kid you not....goddamn ballroom dancing!

Frank Harrist · Post by **Frank Harrist** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 11:46 am

Minimalist wrote:No you didn't...it was a lie.

They had some "ballroom dancing" thing on instead.

I kid you not....goddamn ballroom dancing!

I did a search for it on DirecTV's site and it ain't even coming on my PBS at all, at least in the next 2 weeks. Is this new or has it been on before? I might have seen it before.

Post by **Minimalist** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 11:52 am

I think it was originally broadcast last year.

Beagle · Post by **Beagle** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 8:53 pm

http://www.al.com/books/mobileregister/ ... xml&coll=3

What were the Americas like before Christopher Columbus? Most educated people would answer that they were a forest primeval, with small, contented tribes of nature-loving American Indians in North America and enigmatic, pyramid- and road-proud but bloody-minded cultures in Central and South America.

Recent anthropological and archaeological research, however, presents a far more complicated and robust picture than most people would ever guess. Hence the outpouring of surprised positive reviews that has greeted "1491: New Revelations of the Americas Before Columbus" (Vintage, paper, $14.95) by Charles C. Mann. Salon dubbed it "monumental," the San Francisco Chronicle labeled it "provocative," and the Plain Dealer enthused, "A ripping man-on-the-ground tour of a world most of us barely intuit.

From The Daily Grail - a new book review. I understand that this is a good book. I intend to read it. One has to wonder how different the world would be if Europeans had not brought deadly diseases with them.

Post by **Minimalist** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 9:12 pm

ROTFLMAO.

I had an e-mail from Arch the other day in which he denounced this book as worthless.

I guess it doesn't begin with "Our Father?"