Keep The Elgin Marbles, Britain

[Minimalist]

Greece can't handle them anyway.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/12/arts/ ... TE&ei=5043

But Greek and international archaeologists and curators warn that the real consequences of the cuts will not become fully apparent for years and will be far more dire for ancient artifacts and historical scholarship. Over the last six months dozens of the country’s most experienced state archaeologists — those with the highest number of years of service and highest salaries, 1,550 euros a month, or a little less than $2,000 — have been forced into early retirement as part of a 10 percent staff reduction within the government’s Ministry of Culture and Tourism. Through regular retirements and attrition over the last two years, the archaeological staff has shrunk even more, to 900 from 1,100, according to the association, the union that represents the archaeologists.

Tragic.

[kbs2244]

Then there is the problem of not appreciating what you have because you have so much.
It is hard to imagine being archaeologist in Greece.
Literally, where do you start?
There is so much that the outstanding is common.

The Marbles are a classic example of that.
They were bought from a disinterested government by the British Ambassador acting as a private citizen.
He was saving them from being use for target practice by the Army.

[MichelleH]

More on the Association of Greek Archaeologists has undertaken a campaign to publicize the impact that budget cuts are taking......

http://www.bendbulletin.com/apps/pbcs.d ... _category=

[circumspice]

Then there is the problem of not appreciating what you have because you have so much.
It is hard to imagine being archaeologist in Greece.
Literally, where do you start?
There is so much that the outstanding is common.

The Marbles are a classic example of that.
They were bought from a disinterested government by the British Ambassador acting as a private citizen.
He was saving them from being use for target practice by the Army.

The Elgin Marbles were bought from a disinterested occupation government, not the Greek government. Big difference there.
The Ottoman Turks were not selling their own heritage, they were selling the conquered Greeks' heritage.

I am torn between both sides of the debate about repatriating the masterpieces done by Phidias & his pupils.

[Minimalist]

Literally, where do you start?

Definitely part one of the problem, KB.

Part TWO? How do you conserve what you dig up.

[Minimalist]

not the Greek government.

There was no Greek government. They are asserting an ex-post facto claim.

The right of conquest was generally recognized.

[circumspice]

Irregardless, the Greek people didn't sell out their heritage. They were not disinterested.
The Ottoman Turks made a little money on some sculptures that they would have burned for lime anyway.
What was done, even though it probably saved some of the world's most important sculptures, was tantamount to looting.
The British Museum is merely interested in keeping what are perhaps their biggest money makers.
It's not British heritage, nor is it world heritage. It is Greek heritage. Greeks carved & painted the sculptures.
The sculptures remained in situ, in Greece, for over 2 millenia. Why is it NOW viewed as world heritage?
Are we going to go to other heritage sites & remove what we deem that 'they' aren't taking proper care of???

[kbs2244]

“Are we going to go to other heritage sites & remove what we deem that 'they' aren't taking proper care of???”

That is a loaded question.
If by “they” we mean whoever is the power of the day at the site then it would seem to dependent on their concern for the items is.
Who gets to define “proper?”

Some nations have the desire to preserve their heritage from the top, policy making level, on down to the common man. Others are developing it, and others seem to have no hope in he foreseeable future.
A great deal seems to depend on the state of the local economy.

China, Japan, the US, most of Europe, and India seem to have the desire and the economy and government ability to enforce that desire.
Most of South America, Mexico, Greece and Egypt have developed a mature tourist industry that is a major part of their national economies, but still have big looting problems due to unemployment.
And then the current mess in Mesopotamia is a tragedy. The Taliban have shown their disdain, even hatred, for anything pre-Islam. So anyplace within their sphere of influence is a black market paradise.

In even in the strongest areas a formal, professional dig takes time and money. Lots of both. Few governments with any kind of social problems can afford to budget something with as much lack of practical return as an archaeological dig.

This has all led to the common “partnership dig” with a local archaeologist working on the staff of what is usually a “Western” university lead dig. It gives the locals some jobs, and some presence and pride in news releases. But the contracts always allow the sending of all but the largest and impractical to move artifacts back to the university involved.

Why take them “back home?” Because the benefactors that donated funds to the dig want to see the results. Since most are rich, and many elderly, they either don’t want, or cannot, go to the site. But you have to pay them back somehow. Traditionally that has been an exhibit in a museum with their name on it. Lord Elgin’s Marbles are a classic example.

All philanthropic things are a pride thing. Without that reward no money gets donated and no dig occurs.

In the much more loosely organized black market we get the same end result. Some rich guy gets to own something old that he can feel good about “saving.” And he fed some less fortunate guys family in the process. The only difference is the usual lack of public access to the artifacts.

Neither process is perfect. But then, few things are.
Both seem to work though.

[circumspice]

"In the much more loosely organized black market we get the same end result. Some rich guy gets to own something old that he can feel good about “saving.” And he fed some less fortunate guys family in the process. The only difference is the usual lack of public access to the artifacts."

You did not say that, did you??!

The difference is the total lack of historical, cultural & scientific context, rendering the item scientifically worthless... Nothing more than an interesting object without provenance.

[Minimalist]

There is a cultural construction of heritage, though. It was always most noticeable with Zahi Hawass in Egypt and his "we Egyptians built the pyramids" crap.
No, the people who built the pyramids were not culturally, linguistically, racially, or religiously part of what constitutes the populace of Egypt now. Egypt, as a modern state, has existed only since 1922. It's history between 1922 and 1100 BC - more or less the end of the New Kingdom - is one of repeated conquest by everyone who came along. I mean Zahi can whine all he wants about being a son of the pharaohs but it is a real stretch of credulity.

Greece, oddly, is even worse. In antiquity the Greeks did not think of themselves as Greek. They were Athenians, Spartans, Thebans, Corinthians, Macedonians, etc. The country has only existed since 1830 and would have lost their war of independence had the French, British and Russians not intervened on their side.

These are modern states, trying to capitalize on an accident of geography to promote tourism. As always, it is all about the money.

[kbs2244]

Actually if it wasn’t for the fact that they would be committing professional suicide there are many experts of various kinds that would jump at the chance to examine privately held, black market acquired, artifacts of many kinds.

And if it wasn’t for the legal problems the owners would love to have them examined and given some professional credence.

The lack of “provenance” is just a crybaby whine from those who cannot manage to find funding. It is a self created, self regulated, exclusive club that cannot stand the idea that someone outside their artificially created rules can do what they think they alone should be allowed to do.

I am not necessarily a fan of the black market but I am enough of a realist to know it is never going to go away. It pre-dates the “legal” way of doing archeology. We cannot afford to ignore what it brings us.

[Minimalist]

The lack of “provenance” is just a crybaby whine

I disagree. The forgers rely on that kind of attitude. That's why Oded Golan had a forgery shop in his apartment which apparently the judge could not see because he was blind!

[circumspice]

"The lack of “provenance” is just a crybaby whine from those who cannot manage to find funding."

Tell me you didn't say that! You Vandal!

Proper excavation & legal provenance are just about the most important aspect of archaeology. Otherwise, you are just a looter.
Looters don't carefully excavate, one layer at a time, taking time to document everything in situ. All they do is tear into a site &
destroy or discard anything that is not commercially marketable. They don't take photographs & measurements, documenting what
is found. They simply foul everything they touch, ruining everything for any archaeologist who is unfortunaate enough to have to
come in behind them & try to salvage something from the mess. You know... Knowledge???

[kbs2244]

You preach the sermon well.

But I am not in the congregation.

I am all in favor of well organized digs.
They provide a lot of knowledge.

But you will never stop the "looters."
There is just too much social/economic need.
So what I am saying is to take away the criminal aspect of studying what they find,
and allow what that study finds to be accepted.

Maybe with an asterisk like they do with sports records?

[circumspice]

You preach the sermon well.

But I am not in the congregation.

I am all in favor of well organized digs.
They provide a lot of knowledge.

But you will never stop the "looters."
There is just too much social/economic need.
So what I am saying is to take away the criminal aspect of studying what they find,
and allow what that study finds to be accepted.

Maybe with an asterisk like they do with sports records?

HERESY!!! (get a rope!)

NO! If you make it socially acceptable & decriminalize looting, then the looting will escalate to enormous proportions.
How can you seriously propose to study an object out of its original context? All you have to go by is the word of someone
who bought the object on the black market. Did the looters document their 'dig'? Did they take meticulous measurements
& lots of photos? Did they take soil samples? Did they submit material for C14 dating? Did they leave a portion of the site
untouched for future generations??? Or did they just wrest everything of value from the site & leave a cratered wasteland
behind them to show their contempt? *shakes fist*