Khirbet Qeiyafa

[Minimalist]

Israel Finkelstein takes Yosef Garfinkle to task for his sensationalistic approach to the Khirbet Qeiyafa excavations.

http://www.4shared.com/get/KQ3ZI9AO/Qei ... _2012.html

We cannot close this article without a comment on the sensational way in which the
finds of Khirbet Qeiyafa have been communicated to both the scholarly community and
the public. The idea that a single, spectacular finding can reverse the course of modern
research and save the literal reading of the biblical text regarding the history of ancient
Israel from critical scholarship is an old one. Its roots can be found in W.F. Albright’s assault
on the Wellhausen School in the early 20th century, an assault that biased archaeological,
biblical and historical research for decades. This trend—in different guises—has resurfaced
sporadically in recent years, with archaeology serving as a weapon to quell progress in
critical scholarship. Khirbet Qeiyafa is the latest case in this genre of craving a cataclysmic
defeat of critical modern scholarship by a miraculous archaeological discovery.

[uniface]

Meh.

Dry, "scholastic" presentations bore people -- even the "professionals" that crank them out.

Splashy, vivid presentations interest people. Basic fact of human response.

The English had this figured out, long ago. Read any article in a British newspaper online and notice the sidebar stuff that accompanies it : Celeb Gossip. With heavy bikini picture content.

What he's whining about is the "end run" around "scholarly consensus" via direct appeal to interested people in general.

We've seen it before, and will again.

The humorous aspect of it is the people tipping their hands as to the root issue by abreacting to the presentation and/or the venue rather than to the actual content.

"That didn't appear in a scholarly, peer-reviewed journal of record ! It is therefore rubbish !"

That forces a tough choice : Do you laugh, cry, become enraged or throw up ?

[Minimalist]

Personally, I dismiss Garfinkle's rantings with the same alacrity as Eilat Mazar's and her employer, Elad. They have a political agenda to use archaeology to dispossess Palestinians. Ethnic cleansing using a trowel and a brush.

[Tiompan]

Meh.
The English had this figured out, long ago. Read any article in a British newspaper online and notice the sidebar stuff that accompanies it : Celeb Gossip. With heavy bikini picture content.

Not "any" or just "English " if you want celeb gossip and bikinis you know where to go .Here's the news on a quiet day for news from "newspapers " Note the lack of celebs and bikinis .
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world
http://www.scotsman.com/news

[Minimalist]

I can live without the "celebrities" ( most of whom I cannot figure out why they are "celebrities" in the first place ) but bikinis have a definite place in the news.

They are the only thing that livens the paper up.

[kbs2244]

He hasn't had much to talk about lately has he?

[E.P. Grondine]

Personally, I dismiss Garfinkle's rantings with the same alacrity as Eilat Mazar's and her employer, Elad. They have a political agenda to use archaeology to dispossess Palestinians. Ethnic cleansing using a trowel and a brush.

Hi min -

I agree completely with your sentiment there.

"Ethnic cleansing" is "not good".

The union of Zionists and Fundamentalist Christians is "not good".

Religion biases affect work in the area very badly.
Discussion is usually turned into no holds barred fights.
This extends from Ebla on...

In the case of "Joshua", what I am interested in is the impact event, and its effects on the "Minoans".

Not when the ancient Israelites or Palestinians entered the area.

[Minimalist]

Modern archaeology points to them being indigenous to the area. Either nomads forced to settle down to grow their own grain after their trading partners were overrun ( Finkelstein) or coastal refugees fleeing the Sea People onslaught (Dever) or some combination of both (my own.)

[E.P. Grondine]

Modern archaeology points to them being indigenous to the area.

Well, min, in my view both peoples' ancestors were indigenous to the area, so what is strange here is to watch how each defines themselves by culture and the change in the use of names.

Another "funny" thing is to watch ancient population distributions being used to justify in some strange way recent land thefts by refugees from other areas. In other words, the Palestinians get to pay for recent European crimes.

[ I want to emphasize that I used exactly the correct wording here, as anyone who studies the history of the First Nations becomes well versed in "land theft".]

Either nomads forced to settle down to grow their own grain after their trading partners were overrun ( Finkelstein) or coastal refugees fleeing the Sea People onslaught (Dever) or some combination of both (my own.)

How about, neither, min. In other words, both hypothesis are wrong and you are as well, but only in a way, as both "peoples" were and are genetically closely related.

The ancient Eblaites controlled the area extending down to the copper workings by the Dead Sea. After the Eblaites were conquered by the Akkadians, those southern copper working people aligned themselves with the Kizzuwadna (Hyksos) who had entered Egypt, providing a line of communication between the Hyksos in the North and the Nubians in the South of the Nile River Valley.

When the Egyptians forced the Hyksos out, they forced out those people, the Hyksos' allies, as well. After a period of nomadism, those people conquered the southern city states of Canaan.
And, yes, they practiced "ethnic cleansing" then - G*d told them to.

Much later [see my chronology for absolute dates], the "Sea Peoples" attacked Egypt. One of the Sea Peoples, the P'l's't, entered the area, coming from southern Anatolia [Palu - Ua/Palawas; Palu/ili].

So, I guess then that at the end of this, the Hebrews [Eblaites] should return to Syria, and the Palestinians [Pileset] should return to Turkey?

And anyone who is not at least PODIA leaves North America and returns to Europe?

And then all of mankind goes back to Africa?

[Minimalist]

The evidence that both Dever and Finkelstein point to in their books - and they agree on much, btw - is far more compelling than that.

[E.P. Grondine]

The evidence that both Dever and Finkelstein point to in their books - and they agree on much, btw - is far more compelling than that.

Hi min -

Oh yeah. There were no genocides in the Ancient Near East, and certainly none committed by the ancient Israelites.

Well, people believe what they want to believe, and will go to great lengths to support those beliefs, and the methods they use to do that exceed the propriety of scientific discourse.

The powerful thing about impact events is that they give you a geological basis for making definitive ["compelling"] statements.

There's nothing like a large hole in the ground to bring these kinds of academic debate to an abrupt end.

Geological data of smaller impact events and impact tsunami do the same.

As there's still a few months left for you to add any comments you want to make about the Holocene Start Impact Event, so please, please go ahead and do so.

I had initially planned "Man and Impact in the Americas" [35$ now] as a test run before using other impact events to clear up "difficulties" with the absolute chronology of the Ancient Near East in a definitive manner, but stroke intervened.

[Minimalist]

I'll take pottery shards as evidence over fairy tales, E.P.

The pottery shards do not have an agenda to push. They simply are.


P.S. Archaeology tells us that the ancient "Israelites" boastful "genocides" never happened. Ironic that they trumpet such utter nonsense considering what happened to them in the mid-20th century, isn't it? What sturmtruppen "Joshua" and his merry men would have made.

[E.P. Grondine]

I'll take pottery shards as evidence over fairy tales, E.P.

The pottery shards do not have an agenda to push. They simply are.

P.S. Archaeology tells us that the ancient "Israelites" boastful "genocides" never happened. Ironic that they trumpet such utter nonsense considering what happened to them in the mid-20th century, isn't it? What sturmtruppen "Joshua" and his merry men would have made.

Hi min -

Along with the pottery shards, and their strategraphic dating, you also need to consider the contemporary documents in Egyptian hieorglyphic and also those in the different cuneiform systems.

Something drew the Hittite King T'Hantilishi [the Tantalus of myth] and the Hittite appenage forces south.

The destruction layer from Joshua's genocide is well documented, though that information is being strongly suppressed right now.

Now somehow those invaders managed to defeat the combined Hittite and appanage forces.

As I've told you before, min, I am really not interested in this aside from the impact event (as reported in contemporary documents) and the fate of the Hittite appanages ("Minoans").

Watching Israeli nationalism try to change the archaeology of the entire region would be amusing, if it were not such a load of s**t.

Watching Bietak being worked over is no joy, especially the mis-statements of his chronology. Same goes for Ebla.

I suppose after the establishment of the Palestinian state, we'll see another nationalist driven archaeology emerge, but I would prefer one based on peace and tourism.

As far as the ancient Israelites being indigenous to the region, and the rise of the monarchy, it is interesting to note the OT prophets repeated warnings about marrying worshipers of Baal, and adopting that religion.

[Minimalist]

The destruction layer from Joshua's genocide is well documented, though that information is being strongly suppressed right now.

Oh, Puhleeze, E.P. Don't give me that conspiracy shit.

There are destruction layers at multiple spots across Canaan spread out over centuries. There is no evidence of a single campaign by anyone.

As William Dever has detailed many of the spots "Joshua" conquered were not even occupied in the LBA. As Dever so cleverly put it re Jericho..." the real miracle is that Joshua conquered a city which did not exist."

[E.P. Grondine]

Oh, Puhleeze, E.P. Don't give me that conspiracy shit.

There are destruction layers at multiple spots across Canaan spread out over centuries. There is no evidence of a single campaign by anyone.

As William Dever has detailed many of the spots "Joshua" conquered were not even occupied in the LBA. As Dever so cleverly put it re Jericho..." the real miracle is that Joshua conquered a city which did not exist."

Hi Min -

Joshua's genocide and the denial of the ca 1585 BCE destruction layer are at the core of this. along with the allied claim that indigenous peoples simply decided to form a monarchy around the time of Samson.

One could go through the rationalizations of this denial site by site, dig by dig, obfuscation by obfuscation.

But the easiest thing to do is simply to ask you, min, "What do you think it was that brought T'Hantilishi, the Hittite military forces, and the appanage military forces south?"