Andrew Collins on Gobekli Tepe sister site

[Tiompan]

Mellaart associated the depiction of vultures at Catal Hoyuk with excarnation in 1967
and mention of the practice is as old as travellers tales .
I doubt that Collins mentioned it in association with GT in 2001 when “Ashes of Angels “appeared .
It is all “watchers “ , “ Nephilim “ and “Provides convincing evidence that angels, demons, and fallen angels were flesh-and-blood members of a giant race predating humanity “ .
“Convincing evidence “ ? Lol .

[E.P. Grondine]

Well, guess again, tiompan.

Let me be real clear about areas in which I disagree with Collins.

First, and most imporantly I believe that he has made mistakes in identifying where the height gene evolved.
I believe it was along the shores of the pre-flood Black Sea,
and was associated with X mt DMA.

For the height gene among Native American peoples, see Draggo and Neuman, or Fowkes, and
http://www.spanishhill.com/p/giant-skeletons.html
and Dr. Becker's excavation.

I do not think that he will take much abuse.

The height gene sometimes expresses in descendent populations, both Cherokee and Osage.
Where there has been intermarriage with Europeans, it expresses independent of hair color.

Second, I think that the Lake Urmiah region in Iran is likely to be related to the Eden of the bible.
IN any case, I think that that region is likely to hold sites of great interest in hominid evolution.

[Tiompan]

Is that all you can manage to disagree with Collins about ?
If you agree about the astromomy why didn't you respond to the problems ?
That's the least of the problems , but it is what this thread is about

Where's the guess ?, did he or did he not mention excarnation at GT in 2001 ?
I doubted that he did .Regardless , others had noted the association with vultures and excarnation in the last century .
The one who is doing the guessing is yourself , you know as much about archaeogentics as you do astronomy .

[E.P. Grondine]

Is that all you can manage to disagree with Collins about ?

Obviously, to everyone except yourself, no.

If you agree about the astromomy why didn't you respond to the problems ?

I have repeatedly stated THE problem that both you and Collins have.

That's the least of the problems , but it is what this thread is about

What "the problems" are lay in the eye of the beholder.
What his thread is about is Collins' site report.
You want it to be about problems with Collins work as a whole.

Where's the guess?, did he or did he not mention excarnation at GT in 2001?
I doubted that he did .

It would better if you read "From the Asehes of Angels" BEFORE commenting on it.

Regardless , others had noted the association with vultures and excarnation in the last century .
The one who is doing the guessing is yourself , you know as much about archaeogentics as you do astronomy .

Accusing me of ignorance will not do you any good, Tompan.
Your own ignorance of modern cometary astronomy is both evident, and self imposed.

Thus there is no point in running the data by you again.

[E.P. Grondine]

Hi Tiompan -

http://www.jasoncolavito.com/blog/ameri ... rchaeology

The problem here of course is that the Andaste were very tall.

For one of the eyewitness accounts of them, see:
http://mith.umd.edu/eada/html/display.p ... racter.xml

Which agrees completely with the human remains which have been excavated, noted above.

Once again, we have craters now, so we win.
We also have mt DNA haplogroups.
We have skeletons, we have material culture.

i am in no way responsible for what others say or do, tiompan.
While I am looking froward to reading Eric Cline's opinion,
I remember his run-in with Manfred Biatek over pottery chronologies,
which Biatek easily "won".

[Tiompan]

Yes we already know about the the nonsense propogated by the nuts .

Keeping to the point , and avoiding bringing in all the other nonsense written by Collins , what has the sensible Colavito article to do with the particular nonsense spouted by Collins and supported by you about KT and Cygnus ? ,i.e look at the content of the thread "Gobekli Tepe sister site " and my first post .

We all have craters , mt DNA haplogroups and much more ,those who get their facts right , win .Those who make mistake ,ignore the problems and waffle lose .

[E.P. Grondine]

Eric Cline commenting on Andrew Collins writings.

George, I already asked you for a short list of what you view as Collins' errors.

You did not provide it, but instead engaged in a lot of ad hominem and ex cathedra,
screaming and shouting, and arm waving.

While I side with Bietek on Bronze Ages chronology,
Cline has provided his list.

I have not read Collins books on Cygnus yet.
As Cline has provided his short list, I will read his objections before I read those books.

I'm glad to hear that you've made it to craters and mt DNA haplogroups.
When you get to modern cometary astronomy, and the very tall "Adena" skeletons, let me know

[E.P. Grondine]

here's your list, George:

E.P. ,
The informed reader would have been aware of the nonsense Collins has been peddling for years . Look at the texts.

Where do we start with this rubbish? Ignoring the obvious nonsense about the “Cygnus mystery “ itself i.e. - Cygnus is at the root of all the world's religions
- The origins of astronomy, literature, ancient cosmologies, even transoceanic sea voyages all occurred some 17,000 years ago .
- Cosmic rays from a binary star known as Cygnus X-3 helped accelerate human evolution during the last Ice Age
- Traces the very DNA of life from shamanic art in Paleolithic caves to the foundations of the Great Pyramid, from psychedelic journeys in the Peruvian Amazon to Francis Crick's discovery of the double helix
- Reveals that our ancestors knew what science is now telling us - that life on Earth originated among the stars, a fact known and accepted by our ancestors .

[Collins] is not an archaeoastronomer, he simply has an axe to grind about Cygnus . As with any any site that has multiple components e.g .Stonehenge ,you can use them to find "alignmnets " to any point of the compass or related to any day of the year . There are plenty of othere examples of "archaeoastronomy " coming up with "alignments" that suggest something entirely different and equally as unlikely.

I suggest you read what real archaeoastronomers have to say about the site.

Your'e "pretty sure about X mt DNA " from the site. I doubt that is based on anything other than a very superficial knowledge of archaeogenetics and is more likely wishful thinking in association with an agenda .

We can find equally nonsensical "archaeoastronomy " in relation to KT .

First , there are three apparent alignments / “avenues” that have their orientation on to the knoll . Accepting the accuracy of the measurement and their presence , their azimuths are 15º, 115º and 140º ,none of which are oriented towards Deneb or Cygnus and are apparently to , or less likely ,away from the knoll . They at least have some association with the basic tenets of archaeoastronomy in that there is , hopefully , a clear setting of stones indicating a specific orientation , although even this is probemlatic i.e. “their twin sets of pillars forming an apparent zigzagging pattern” .

The real nitty gritty is the putative alignment towards Deneb . What we have as seen from the knoll i.e. the backsight is a flat horizon to the north towards Keçili North Tepe .This is the foresight , except it is nothing like a foresight ,it’s a featureless flat summit a kilometre away but only 20 m higher than the knoll .The effect is seen in fig 12 . That is not an example of a foresight, it’s a featureless horizon. An example of a foresight could be a standing stone, like the Heel Stone , or even a prominent notch in a hillside ,something that provides a element of accuracy when lined up from the backsight , not a flat hillside occupying over 20 degrees of the horizon. It’s potentially worse than that , the knoll is merely the high point ,and not where the pillars are and it looks likely that Keçili North Tepe is unsighted from the majority of the pillars/avenues .

Then when we look at what actually happens with the Deneb in the period we discover that half the year Deneb would not be seen to set over the hill at all as it would take place in daylight . The altitude of 2 degrees for the extinction height means that when in view it is still over half an hour before setting on the actual horizon and has also moved over four degrees towards the centre of the “hill” (actually a flat horizon ).

Looking to play games with stars on the northern horizon in the period? Far more interesting would Mizar ,in Ursa major , which actually descends towards towards the horizon as seen from the knoll and skims the top of the hill before ascending again at due north, where there happens to be a relatively distinctive hill (752 m )for the area ,if anything is a foresight it is.

Arcturus. a much brighter star than Deneb, behaves in much the same way as Mizar, following the silhouette of the hill then ascending at the more likely and only potential foresight .

These are not intended suggested as being meaningful, simply examples that crop up if you look hard enough or have an agenda to sell. Ever hear of a major prehistoric monument being accepted as being aligned on Deneb ? North yes, but that’s a cardinal point .Like the rest of the “mystery “ it’s a joke .The nonsense goes back a long way . I can remember “The Green Stone” and the psychic questing and magazine articles that would make the alt/ wacky US crowd seem sober.

George, I am old enough to remember all of the crap Thom got over Stonehenge.

You appear to be incapable of considering that KT and GT may have been aligned on a comet.

You also appear to be incapable of considering a hominid population evolving along the shores of the ancient Black Sea.

Any maritime people is going to have a fairly advanced astronomy which they use for celestial navigation. As Shepard has pointed out, they are likely to use way points as well.

I am more interested in learning about the ancient environment in the area of KT and GT, and in sites nearer the water in the area, than in your screaming and arm-waving about Collins.

[circumspice]

This thread has become a senseless yawner.

[E.P. Grondine]

This thread has become a senseless yawner.

Hi circumspice -

One bit of data George is having problems with is the very tall skeletons recently professionally excavated; he is also desperately trying to any deny any relationship between them and the X mt DNA haplogroup.

Earlier finds of tall skeletons have been used from Joseph Smith onward by various confused individuals to make spiritual claims, to construct "sacred" sciences that have been and are tied into religious systems. George thinks that Collins has engaged or is engaging in this type of behacior; I have not read Collins more recent books yet to verify this for myself; as Collins had not done this earlier, I am skeptical of George's claims.

The other bit of data George is having problems with is "recent" craters from cometary impact; he is desperately trying to deny that they occurred by making appeals to a field of
archae-astronomy, which was developed before they were found.

Since both those bits of data were remembered by the keepers of traditional native histories, George's solution to that problem is simply to dismiss those histories as nonsense. See Lepper's recent work for another example of this behavior.

Another problem George has is his intentional disregard for the European colonists' accounts of the "giant" Andaste before they were genocidally extincted.

[E.P. Grondine]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAkjQaH ... eQ_TKAUqL-

Here in lies a lot of the problems with working with Andaste remains.

Personally, I am more interested in Benjamin Barton's papers and work.

[E.P. Grondine]

For those interested in Andrew Collins' current analysis of GT, a summary may be found here:
https://www.academia.edu/6603268/G%C3%B ... en_and_Why

http://www.andrewcollins.com/page/artic ... launch.htm

[Tiompan]

Eric Cline commenting on Andrew Collins writings.

George, I already asked you for a short list of what you view as Collins' errors.

You did not provide it, but instead engaged in a lot of ad hominem and ex cathedra,
screaming and shouting, and arm waving.

Then in the next post .

here's your list, George:

You provide some of the problems that i had lisetd and which you have avoided . That is what we have to put up with .Not only do you evade the probelms you deny they exist ,then contardict yourself by providing them

George, I am old enough to remember all of the crap Thom got over Stonehenge. {quote]
The crap came from him , if you want the data , ask , but tt least he understood the subject

You appear to be incapable of considering that KT and GT may have been aligned on a comet. {quote]

You appear to be unable top provide one example of prehsitoric monument that has ever been seriously considered considered to be have been aligned on a comet . Findiong a prehistoric monumnet that was aligned on an comet that was invisible to the builders would be even more difficult , but that shoulldn't stop you or the the other nuts .

You also appear to be incapable of considering a hominid population evolving along the shores of the ancient Black Sea. {quote]
That comment is as daft and baseless as your understanding of what this thread is actually about .

[Tiompan]

One bit of data George is having problems with is the very tall skeletons recently professionally excavated; he is also desperately trying to any deny any relationship between them and the X mt DNA haplogroup.

You keep evaidning the points in rellation to the subject of thread i.e. KT sister site of GT and how interesting it is ,and how Collins has written a lot of nonsense about that would be better ignored .You also keep attempting to change the subject by introducing stuff about comets , that you also get wrong , and now it's giants . If you want to waffle about them start another thread .

Earlier finds of tall skeletons have been used from Joseph Smith onward by various confused individuals to make spiritual claims, to construct "sacred" sciences that have been and are tied into religious systems. George thinks that Collins has engaged or is engaging in this type of behacior; I have not read Collins more recent books yet to verify this for myself; as Collins had not done this earlier, I am skeptical of George's claims.

What claims ?,read what I have posed as the problems about the subject of this thread and address them , if you can .

The other bit of data George is having problems with is "recent" craters from cometary impact; he is desperately trying to deny that they occurred by making appeals to a field of
archae-astronomy, which was developed before they were found.

I have said nothing about craters ,other than they exist . They are nothing to do with the subject of this thread and are yet another evasion of the problems .

Since both those bits of data were remembered by the keepers of traditional native histories, George's solution to that problem is simply to dismiss those histories as nonsense. See Lepper's recent work for another example of this behavior.

Another problem George has is his intentional disregard for the European colonists' accounts of the "giant" Andaste before they were genocidally extincted.

This is another evasion and another attempt to change the subject . Further , why didn't you provide quotes for this supposed dismissal which should be on another thread ?

[E.P. Grondine]

Hi George -

I try to be civil.
But when you casually refer to me as being a nut,
then the others will have to excuse me if I don't remain civil.
There is simply only so much s*** I can take before things turn ugly.

I'm not the person here proposing a magic comet fairy, you are.
So I propose a deal: you can call me "nuts", if I can call you "stupid".

We have craters now for the Holocene Start Impact Event.
They are real geological data.
And we have dates.

I've told you before that I can no longer do ancient alignments: gausian fits to newtonian conic sections, with orbital permutation over time, and precession.

Others will let you know if and when any alignments to Giacobini Zinner (21P) are confirmed.

Now I asked you for a simple list of your objections to Collins work, not a lot of abuse.
Cline has provided his list.
I provided my on lit of my doubts aabout parts of Collins earlier works;
I have not read anything more recent by him, including his books on Gobekli Tepe.

Moving on to other business, there are large skeletons which have been professionally excavated, by Dragoo and Neuman, and the professional archaeologist from Pittsburgh. While you can lie about Dragoo and Neuman, because they are dead,
you can not lie about the most recent excavation report,
because its author is still living and may sue you for slander.

I simply provided you with a couple of eyewitness contact era accounts of them.
You can do what you whatever you like,
But please remember that the data always wins in the end.
If you want to become a casualty to data, that is your choice (and perhaps your business).

I've some up with my best explanation for it.
All of it.