Death Knell for Clovis Firsters?

[circumspice]

Securely dated footprints, dating from 21,000-23,000 years ago appear to show evidence of human activities in White Sands National Park that long predate the Clovis culture. How long will Clovis Firsters continue with their denial of the earlier peopling of the Americas/New World?

https://www.usgs.gov/news/fossilized-fo ... previously

Side Note: I linked this article because most of the articles related to this latest find are found on websites that require paid subscriptions. (Not something that I'm willing to do to read a single article or paper.)

Edit: A link in the above linked article, a fairly good article with several good pics:

https://www.nps.gov/whsa/learn/nature/f ... prints.htm

Edit: A link to the paper written for this discovery:

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abg7586

[Minimalist]

Clovis-First has been on life-support for quite a while. This may be the coup d'grace. Refinements in C14 testing have been proven correct on pollen samples in the Levant. No reason to think that it is any different on this side of the pond.

Of course, the Adam and Eve and 6,000 year-old earth crowd will continue to insist that it is all fake news!

[circumspice]

I tend to think that science is advancing one death at a time as the Clovis Firsters die off. That may be harsh but it's accurate. If you have hitched your wagon (career) to a premise that has been proven false & you can't concede that your thinking is in error in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, you need to shut your trap & fade gracefully into obscurity. To do otherwise is a pathetic embarassment to yourself in the eyes of the archaeological community. Buck up Bucky!

[Minimalist]

Yes but there are hard sciences and soft sciences and sadly archaeology is "soft." There is always room for interpretation of finds. That said, it explains why the losing side does not like it when they are tripped up by C14 dating. They have refined that now to a point where an olive pit, pollen grain or seed can give a date with a +/- of 20 years. When someone comes up with a date 10k years before your pet theory that doesn't leave them much room for anything except to claim "contamination" of the sample.

I imagine they'll be making that claim in self-defense in short order.

[circumspice]

Yeah, no doubt. Didn't the Clovis Firsters claim the C14 dates from Monte Verde were contaminated by carbon from ancient forest fires that somehow percolated 'UP' through the archaeological layers to give the Monte Verde site a false set of ancient dates??? I'm still trying to work out the logistics of THAT. Maybe it was just magic.

[Minimalist]

I'm not sure. I know the Shroud of Turin nuts tried to claim that when separate labs came back with a 12th century date for that thing. Somehow, they don't seem to grasp that in order to get a C14 date you have to incinerate the sample in the first place.

Its grasping at straws.

[circumspice]

I remember the Shroud of Tourin controversy... The proponents also claimed that the researchers had sampled only the 12th century patches that were repairs for 12th century fire damage to the shroud. As if the researchers couldn't tell the difference between the original material & the material from the patches... Now THAT is a desperate stretch. I noticed at the time that the Vatican remained suspiciously silent on the issue.

[Minimalist]

There are so many things wrong with that Shroud bullshit. My favorite is "jesus" being only a half inch thick!.

Like Gumby.

[Simon21]

I am shocked by this trashing of the Turin Shroud. Last year on a visit to Ephesus we were taken to the virgin Mary's house. So it's all true - favoured Zanussi washing machines apparently.

[Minimalist]

We missed that when we were in Ephesus in 2007.... or perhaps it had not been built yet?

[shawomet]

The age of the prints mean people were here during the Last Glacial Maximum. And the find weakens any inherent skepticism of older sites, such as this cave in Mexico:

https://bigthink.com/the-past/earliest- ... years-ago/

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science- ... 180975385/

[circumspice]

Hey shawomet, thanks for the links to those articles! I hadn't heard of that particular archaeological site. It adds more fuel to Clovis Firsters' funeral pyre! Here's hoping that they go down in flames of ignominy! (It would serve them right for their intransigent arrogance.)

[wertuOZ]

It feels like everyone wants to hide it from us. But they fail, because we know the truth

[circumspice]

Brief PBS YouTube video about the White Sands human trackways. Spoiler alert: there's ALWAYS at least one naysayer.

https://youtu.be/dFk7o6C2kV8

[shawomet]

Well, Clovis-First is already slim to slimmer, but these footprints may not be as old as claimed. I sure was excited, and hoped it was upheld. I understand the original authors have responded, defending the dating of the aquatic plants. Different dating methods are likely needed….

https://www.dri.edu/footprints-claimed- ... rch-shows/