Clovis First Takes Another Hit

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Minimalist
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Clovis First Takes Another Hit

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https://www.cnn.com/2022/08/04/world/ma ... index.html

Discovery in paleontologist's backyard reveals evidence of North America's early humans
Collagen taken from the mammoth bones helped the researchers determine that the animals were butchered at the site between 36,250 and 38,900 years ago. This age range makes the New Mexico site one of the oldest that ancient humans created in North America, researchers said.
Scientists have debated for years when early humans first arrived in North America.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

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circumspice
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Re: Clovis First Takes Another Hit

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It just keeps becoming more incontrovertable. Real science vs rote science. I wonder if Clovis firsters will try to dispute this find. It's not a new discovery & the results weren't rushed to publication. That kinda makes it hard to claim it's premature.
"Nothing discloses real character like the use of power. It is easy for the weak to be gentle. Most people can bear adversity. But if you wish to know what a man really is, give him power. This is the supreme test." ~ Robert G. Ingersoll

"Damn with faint praise, assent with civil leer, and, without sneering, teach the rest to sneer." ~ Alexander Pope
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Re: Clovis First Takes Another Hit

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Of course they will and we've heard it all before.

Contaminated samples...... speculative dating.....people who are not recognized experts in the field..... unproven methods..... yada, yada, yada.

It's always the same act.


The real question is "what kind of early humans?"

And, if they got to New Mexico by 37,000ybp how long had they been in NA before that.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin
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circumspice
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Re: Clovis First Takes Another Hit

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The real question is "what kind of early humans?"

And, if they got to New Mexico by 37,000ybp how long had they been in NA before that.


Two valid questions. Questions that I've wondered about.

We've been told for the last century that the Clovis culture came first. We've been told that there's no need to look further back. We've been told that the ice-free corridor is the only place to look for evidence of the peopling of the New World. That always struck me as restrictive.

People don't take only one route if other routes are available. Also, the timeline bothers me. There were warm phases in between colder phases. We're not talking about a single season of warmth. The warm phases lasted generations. Also, migrations followed the changes. The fauna would certainly have followed the spread of better grazing grounds & people would have followed the animals. That doesn't mean that any certain wave of migration was successful. It just means that animals & people followed the pulses of weather wherever it took them. Sooner or later, some would have been successful. Like the Clovis people...

I think that the next round of investigations should concentrate on river valleys, coastal areas & lakes, just like in the old world. River valleys were corridors for migration & settlements. The same can be said for coastal zones & lakes. What will we find if we strip the blinders off?
"Nothing discloses real character like the use of power. It is easy for the weak to be gentle. Most people can bear adversity. But if you wish to know what a man really is, give him power. This is the supreme test." ~ Robert G. Ingersoll

"Damn with faint praise, assent with civil leer, and, without sneering, teach the rest to sneer." ~ Alexander Pope
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Re: Clovis First Takes Another Hit

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Reasonable in a lot of cases. Not so sure it applies to New Mexico. It is not exactly known for its rivers.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin
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circumspice
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Re: Clovis First Takes Another Hit

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Minimalist wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 10:18 pm Reasonable in a lot of cases. Not so sure it applies to New Mexico. It is not exactly known for its rivers.


Even the greatest deserts in the world had humid phases. Look at what they call The Green Sahara. I wouldn't be premature & say that our desert southwest won't have signs of human occupation, if only in a migratory/nomadic/just passing through mode. Look at the Great Salt Lake. It was once a huge body of water. Surely people would at least stop briefly to fish even if it was a salty inland sea. They almost surely would have stopped to gather salt to take with them. Salt is such a useful mineral. Anywho... I believe that archaic/early modern humans at least passed through the New World. That would date back to maybe as long ago as 300kya. It doesn't mean that their presence was anything other than ephemeral. It's tough to colonise new, unfamiliar places. But maybe they left traces that can be found if we look in likely places.
"Nothing discloses real character like the use of power. It is easy for the weak to be gentle. Most people can bear adversity. But if you wish to know what a man really is, give him power. This is the supreme test." ~ Robert G. Ingersoll

"Damn with faint praise, assent with civil leer, and, without sneering, teach the rest to sneer." ~ Alexander Pope
Minimalist
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Re: Clovis First Takes Another Hit

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It's not that. It's the mountain ranges between New Mexico and the Pacific. Some of the rivers that flow through Texas and Oklahoma may in the remote past have flowed into New Mexico but they flowed the wrong way. Not that moving upstream was impossible but it is a long way from the Gulf of Mexico to Santa Fe and we are speculating about tiny groups on a huge landscape.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin
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circumspice
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Re: Clovis First Takes Another Hit

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I wish I knew how to post a YouTube link...

Anywho, there is a short video about the 37kya mammoth butchery site in New Mexico. The channel is called History With Kayleigh. She is Dutch & speaks nearly flawless English. She posts a lot of videos about ancient history, anthropology & paleontology. The videos are always short & to the point, with no rambling. She also made a video about the White Sands footprints. You might enjoy those videos.
"Nothing discloses real character like the use of power. It is easy for the weak to be gentle. Most people can bear adversity. But if you wish to know what a man really is, give him power. This is the supreme test." ~ Robert G. Ingersoll

"Damn with faint praise, assent with civil leer, and, without sneering, teach the rest to sneer." ~ Alexander Pope
Minimalist
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Re: Clovis First Takes Another Hit

Post by Minimalist »

Just post the link. It shows up and all anyone needs to do is click on it. We don't seem to be set up to play videos automatically.

Like so.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2hssAyomdU


The video was chosen simply because it was first in my Youtube feed and is quite short....and cute if you like cats and dogs.... for demonstration purposes.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin
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circumspice
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Re: Clovis First Takes Another Hit

Post by circumspice »

Okay. I think I figured it out... If I access a YouTube channel through a browser, rather than the app, I can copy the link from the browser.

Ancient pre-Clovis sites in New Mexico:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=okczJHs4Ndg

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aCr5Ukx0V7w


Bonus video, just for fun: :mrgreen:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7set2WNi0w
"Nothing discloses real character like the use of power. It is easy for the weak to be gentle. Most people can bear adversity. But if you wish to know what a man really is, give him power. This is the supreme test." ~ Robert G. Ingersoll

"Damn with faint praise, assent with civil leer, and, without sneering, teach the rest to sneer." ~ Alexander Pope
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