Early American Indians

[Gary Svindal]

Barracuda: The reference given was "Life Among the Paiutes", by Sarah Winnemucca Hopkins. Not aware if verification was ever done, so it is just an interesting story until scientifically proven.

[Digit]

Yep, the basic elements overlaid with with a veneer to bring it into the context of the listeners and placed in a geographical location they would appreciate and with names they could relate to.
Just about every English county has tales of St George killing the dragon in their locality, and of course King Arthur was Cornish, Welsh, Saxon, Romano British, or a Scot, take your pick!
Same with Robin Hood.

[Barracuda]

Yep, you hear a lot of stuff passing the "peace" pipe with intoxicated Native Americans...

I think they get a lot of that stuff off the internet

[Cognito]

Same with Robin Hood.

Aw, crap. I thought I was Robin Hood!

[Digit]

And I'm Maid Marion ducky.

[marduk]

can i still be Marduk

[Charlie Hatchett]

Yep, the basic elements overlaid with with a veneer to bring it into the context of the listeners and placed in a geographical location they would appreciate and with names they could relate to.
Just about every English county has tales of St George killing the dragon in their locality, and of course King Arthur was Cornish, Welsh, Saxon, Romano British, or a Scot, take your pick!
Same with Robin Hood.

Yup.

[Charlie Hatchett]

can i still be Marduk

[Charlie Hatchett]

Aw, crap. I thought I was Robin Hood!

Maybe the next version.

[Charlie Hatchett]

WOW! I heard those stories about giant red headed white men around the campfire in the high desert hanging out with some guys from the Walker River Piute Band!

Check it out, 'Cuda:

THE SI-TE-CAH - THE AMERINDS' WHITE ENEMIES ACCORDING TO INDIAN BELIEF

A cave near Lovelock, Nevada, (about 80 miles north east of the city of Reno in that state) has produced several sets of mummies, bones, and artifacts buried under several layers of bat excrement - the desiccated bodies belonged to a very tall people - with red hair. Once again, only White Nordics fit the bill with regard to stature and hair color.

In fact, red-haired enemies feature in local Indian legends - or what were thought legends until the discovery of the Lovelock mummies. (The locals Indians are the Paiutes, the same ones who object to the scientific investigation of the Spirit Cave Mummy). According to these legends, the red haired enemies centered on these tall troublemakers whom they called the "Si-Te-Cah." Significantly, the name Si-Te-Cah means "tule eaters" - tule being the fibrous reed which is the base material of the mats in which the Spirit Cave Mummy was buried. Tule is no longer found in the region and was likely imported along with the people who used it.



Above: Skulls recovered from the Lovelock Cave, where, according to Amerind tradition, the last of a red haired tribe, the Si-Te-Cah, were exterminated. The "long" nature of one of the Lovelock Cave skulls indicate White ancestry.

According to the Paiute, the red-haired peoples were warlike, and a number of the Indian tribes joined together in a long war against them. According to the Indian legend, after a long struggle, a coalition of Indian tribes trapped the remaining Si-Te-Cah in what is now called Lovelock Cave. When they refused to come out, the Indians piled brush before the cave mouth and set it aflame. The Si-Te-Cah were incinerated.

Sarah Winnemucca Hopkins, daughter of Paiute Chief Winnemucca, related many stories about the Si-Te-Cah in her book "Life Among the Paiutes."

On page 75, she relates: "My people say that the tribe we exterminated had reddish hair. I have some of their hair, which has been handed down from father to son. I have a dress which has been in our family a great many years, trimmed with the reddish hair. I am going to wear it some time when I lecture. It is called a mourning dress, and no one has such a dress but my family."

In 1931, further skeletons were discovered in the Humboldt Lake bed. Eight years later, a mystery skeleton was unearthed on a ranch in the region. In each case, the skeletons were exceptionally tall - much taller than the surrounding Amerinds.
There is a small display on the Si-Te-Cah in the Lovelock museum today, but it ignores the evidence which indicates that the Si-Te-Cah were not Amerinds. The Nevada State Historical Society also displays some artifacts from the cave.

http://www.white-history.com/hwr6b.htm

[Gary Svindal]

The Si-Te-Cah supposedly built a stone pyramidal structure in New York Canyon in Churchill County, Nevada. If there’s any evidence of such a structure, an archeologist could make some serious points. The below link is to Spirit Cave Man previously posted by Charlie. Just check that profile! He had long reddish-brown hair. Seems organizations such as Friends of America's Past provide a good check and balance to NAGPRA.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1713887/posts

Significance: One of the most securely dated ancient Americans. In addition, such rarely perserved items as hair, skin, clothing and textiles were recovered

Spirit Cave Man eked out a life among the oases of an unforgiving desert. He fished in Great Basin lakes, hunted small mammals and wore clothing woven from strips of pelts and marsh plants. The hunter survived to his mid-40s. But he had broken his right hand and suffered chronic back pain from arthritis, herniated disks and a fracture in his spine. A blow to the left temple dented and cracked his skull, which had just begun to heal when he died, perhaps from that injury or the advanced abscesses in his upper and lower jaws.

He was buried lying on his right side, arm flexed so his hand rested beneath the chin, in a shallow grave dug in a desert cave. The cave's climate preserved patches of skin and reddish-brown shoulder-length hair on the skull, making him North America's oldest mummy. Dried intestines contained fish bones from a final meal.

Also preserved were his rabbit fur robe, two shrouds of woven tule reeds, and well-worn moccasins of three kinds of animal hide, sewn with hemp and sinew, and patched on the soles.

[Minimalist]

Yes Charley, that is the point I have been trying to make.

Agreed, an educated guess. Take the flood example. Several different cultures in different regions relay the basic elements of the story. This lends credibilty to the tradition.

Here's one for all to chew on. The first chapter of Genesis speaks of God creating light prior to the Sun and Moon and Stars. Is this explicable in naturalistic terms, or does this take credibility away from the oral tradition?

Be back in a bit...got to play bus driver and haul the kids a couple of places.

Which version of the Creation are you referring to? There are two in the "unerring book."

http://www.artcyclopedia.com/advent/fea ... day12.html

There are two versions of Creation in Genesis (1:1-2). The first, which we have quoted above, and the second, in which God fashions Eve out of the rib of Adam. Painters have always favored the second version)

[Charlie Hatchett]

Which version of the Creation are you referring to? There are two in the "unerring book."

The only one I'm aware of is: Genesis 1:1-2:25

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... &version=9;

Is there another?

[Cognito]

Significance: One of the most securely dated ancient Americans. In addition, such rarely perserved items as hair, skin, clothing and textiles were recovered

Gary, I believe there is still a fight going on between the Pah-Ute tribe and scientists over giving up the body for genetic analysis. The tribal members obviously fear the results. Reddish brown hair at an ancient date would not be haplogroup Q.

[Forum Monk]

The only one I'm aware of is: Genesis 1:1-2:25

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... &version=9;

Is there another?

I thinks he's talking about chapter 1 as one and chapter 2 as another. Chapter 2 adds more details and so some interpret it as a different version.