Quicker Demise For Neanderthal?

[Minimalist]

Traditionally, agriculture is ascribed to beginning in the Middle East. That may or may not hold true but it does seem reasonable that whenever and wherever it started in was in a place which was not getting hammered by ice sheets.

[daybrown]

Archaeology magazine a few years ago posted that DNA shows that wheat descended from einkorn 10kya, which is still growing in the Taurus mtns. This is but one of many factors that combined in Anatolia 10kya. July 2000 Discover magazine reported on a study of the bone middens in the Southern Taurus mtns which show a large portion of adult goat does, but few bucks. Also 10kya.

This is what you get if you raise goats. You butcher the buck kids early cause testosterone makes goats difficult to deal with too. They only keep the most docile males on hand to sire the next generation. The result is domestic goats.

Another study shows they were running pigs up into the forest to feed on nuts, and then feeding them thru the winter by the lakeside. Lake Tuz was then 100 times larger than now, full of ice age glacial melt water.

But then, there was a Younger Dryas type climate shift 8200 BP, and *most* folks fled north to the shores of the Euxine lake. Sure they have found signs of agriculture in the fertile crescent in this era too, but conditions there were much more challenging, whereas the Great Euxine lake became a cultural melting pot that resulted in the Proto-Indo-Europeans.

The signs in the fertile crescent were easy to see, like brickwork. But the much vaster cultures to the north built in timber frame which left no visible sign on the landscape. A clue however to the process is illustrated by "Tripolye", a city on the Dneipr which was found only by magnetometers that identified the charred post stubs still in the ground of a cow pasture.

Tripolye was *9* times larger than Ur or any of the other Semetic cities, and *1000* years older. The Biblical Levant and even Egypt were *not* the first great civilizations, they just workedin stone and brick that left more obvious clues. But The Vinca & Cucuteni had writing *7000* years ago. And arsenic bronze. And several fabric technologies, and innovative and diverse agriculture, with a trade network from Salzburg all the way down the Danube to the Black Sea. They even found a 'trading post' outside of Paris setup by the LBK to trade crocks of Kraut to the hunting tribes. 7000 BP.

All this has disturbed sensibilities; so many academics have built careers on Egyptian and Levantine civilizations, the last thing they want is the distraction and resources now being shifted to European/Eurasian digs.

[Minimalist]

The last glacial maximum got no where near Turkey so, no argument here.

[RK AWl-O'Gist]

A clue however to the process is illustrated by "Tripolye", a city on the Dneipr which was found only by magnetometers that identified the charred post stubs still in the ground of a cow pasture

Tripolye was discovered by VV Hokoi in 1893-magnetometers hadn't been invented yet.
www.archweb.cimec.ro/arheologie/cucuteni/100.htm

[Rokcet Scientist]

On a side track: that's a great map, Bob. Thanks! You can so clearly see how the Solutreans could roam the sea ice shelf, on foot, from Brittanny, France, to Nova Scotia/Maine, just following the seals and the penguins.

[Minimalist]

On a side track: that's a great map, Bob. Thanks! You can so clearly see how the Solutreans could roam the sea ice shelf, on foot, from Brittanny, France, to Nova Scotia/Maine, just following the seals and the penguins.

Sure as hell looks like an easier trip than a corresponding effort made around the Pacific edge, doesn't it?

[Rokcet Scientist]

On a side track: that's a great map, Bob. Thanks! You can so clearly see how the Solutreans could roam the sea ice shelf, on foot, from Brittanny, France, to Nova Scotia/Maine, just following the seals and the penguins.

Sure as hell looks like an easier trip than a corresponding effort made around the Pacific edge, doesn't it?

They did that too. Several waves. And the long walk across the Bering Land Bridge doesn't seem improbable either. Imho: all of that happened. They came from all directions. In dozens of waves. And some walked across the Atlantic ice.
All of those strains from everywhere were bound to give rise to all those puzzling mDNA and Y-chromosome mix patterns they find.

[daybrown]

Tripolye was discovered by VV Hokoi in 1893-magnetometers hadn't been invented yet. Wink
www.archweb.cimec.ro/arheologie/cucuteni/100.htm
Nice link, thanx. None of the others I've seen mention who, or why it was found; the only ref I've seen was the magnetometers used to locate the post stubs, and thereby the size of the city.

What did Hokoi find? a midden?

[RK Awl-O'Gist]

This link just says Hvoiko found a village-although yiu'll need to scroll don quite far to find it.
www.drummingnet.com/alekseev/ChapterVI.html

Here's more info on the culture generally-
http://csen.org/csen.tofc/csen_tofc.html

[daybrown]

www.drummingnet.com/alekseev/ChapterVI.html
Wow. Dont often see a link that is so informative.
http://csen.org/csen.tofc/csen_tofc.html
Is well worth the trip too, providing convincing evidence of Amazons. Which I see are no longer subject to unwarrented dismissibility.

I note as well that its been stated that it was impossible for HNS & HSS to hybridize because the chromosomes dont match up. Yet the top link above notes a horse found in Southern Russia with a different number of chromosomes. Then there's the mention of hybrid Bactrian/Dromedary camels; The one lighter framed and faster, the other shorter and much more robust. Never mind the number of humps.

So- I'd like to know why horses can hybridize, sometimes even with donkeys, and both *species* camels could as well, but the hominids could not? On the face of it, that seems, well- racist.

I believe that Archaeology magazine was one of the sources which reported that they found a group of farmers in a remote Turkish valley still using the PIE root words for grains and their production. This fits with the link's assertion that PIE originated in Anatolia... along with the Anatolian cities like Chatal Hoyuk & Hacilar. And with the Link's assertion that the language moved north (with the farmers). To the shores of the Great Euxine lake in the late 7th mil, and again because of the 6th mil Great Flood, even further north to Ukraine, eventually all the way up the Dneipr to Tripolye.

The Link also suggests that PIE was an amalgum of several languages, which would have been the result of the refugees Ryan & Pitman mention who fled the chronic droughts to the largest body of fresh water around, the Euxine lake. And there by the lake, meeting hunters & fishermen coming down the Don, Danube, & Dneipr rivers, adding their nomenclature to PIE.

[RK Awl-O'Gist]

So- I'd like to know why horses can hybridize, sometimes even with donkeys, and both *species* camels could as well, but the hominids could not? On the face of it, that seems, well- racist

No idea, unfortunately....

The Link also suggests that PIE was an amalgum of several languages, which would have been the result of the refugees Ryan & Pitman mention who fled the chronic droughts to the largest body of fresh water around, the Euxine lake.

Think I'm right in saying the Basque (?) language shows evidence of having pre-Indo-European vocabulary, and that Finnish has no link to IE whatsoever. Feel free to correct me, I don't have the books handy.

[Rokcet Scientist]

[...] So- I'd like to know why horses can hybridize, sometimes even with donkeys, and both *species* camels could as well, but the hominids could not? On the face of it, that seems, well- racist.

"Racism" is a purely human concept. Afaik the concept does not figure in nature.
Want to know about hybridization? That's not archaeology. Look it up here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid. Or ask these folks: http://forums.hypography.com/biology/33 ... -than.html, http://www.scientistsolutions.com/f50-+ ... ation.html

[Minimalist]

Speaking of Turkey,


http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/arti ... wsid=38118

Archaeologists unearth 9,000-year-old settlement in Seydişedir
Thursday, March 16, 2006


As a result of four years of painstaking excavation, a settlement dating back 9,000 years was discovered in central Anatolia. The tumulus is unique for the region as it is surrounded by walls

ANKARA - Turkish Daily News



A settlement dating back 9,000 years was discovered during archaeological excavations in Seydişehir, a district of the central Anatolian province of Konya.

Following a visit to Gökhüyük, where the settlement was unearthed, Konya's Provincial Culture and Tourism Director Abdüssettar Yarar told the Anatolia news agency that excavations have been conducted for the past four years by a team under the supervision of archaeologist Enver Akgün.

He said the 50-strong team worked at site every year between June and November.

“The tumulus dates to the Neolithic era,” he said. “We are putting special emphasis on similar excavations to unearth the hidden historical wealth of our region.”

Noting that the tumulus is unique in central Anatolia as it is surrounded by walls, Yarar said: “Settlements from the Neolithic period surrounded by walls are rare in Anatolia. Gökhüyük is, therefore, very important historically.”

“Dishes, filters and millstones as well as offerings for the dead, a tradition of the day, have been found,” Yarar said. “They appear to have been a developed civilization taking into account the time in which they lived.”

He also said over 200 artifacts had been unearthed during the four years of excavation and that they are on display at various museums in Konya.

Seydişehir Mayor İbrahim Halıcı said Seydişehir was one of the oldest settlement areas in Anatolia, adding: “As the municipality we are lending support in order to unearth the area's historical wealth. We will be holding a conference on ancient Seydişehir during tourism week in April.”

A walled settlement in Turkey in 7,000 BC is fairly significant.

[Rokcet Scientist]

Speaking of Turkey,

http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/arti ... wsid=38118

Archaeologists unearth 9,000-year-old settlement in Seydi?edir
Thursday, March 16, 2006

As a result of four years of bla bla

A walled settlement in Turkey in 7,000 BC is fairly significant.

Because?

[Minimalist]

Speaking of Turkey,

http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/arti ... wsid=38118

Archaeologists unearth 9,000-year-old settlement in Seydi?edir
Thursday, March 16, 2006

As a result of four years of bla bla

A walled settlement in Turkey in 7,000 BC is fairly significant.

Because?

Because...."

“Settlements from the Neolithic period surrounded by walls are rare in Anatolia. Gökhüyük is, therefore, very important historically.”

And, besides, even Jericho didn't have walls to come tumbling down!