Out of Africa Busted

The science or study of primitive societies and the nature of man.

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john
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Post by john »

Minimalist wrote:When Bednarik wrote this...way back on page 1...
One of the most sophisticated symbol systems developed by our species is of course language, and it is widely agreed that maritime navigation and colonization of lands by seagoing vessels presupposes relatively complex communication forms, almost certainly of the
verbal kind. Since Pleistocene seafaring necessarily involved forward planning and coordinated community efforts, it is almost impossible to account for it in the absence of “reflective” language.
I doubt that he was considering such esoteric things as religion although most certainly that soon developed. Let's try and see what we agree on here. The ability to do abstract reasoning...even problem solving...is a big part of what makes humans human. If I'm reading Bendarik correctly he is saying that such reasoning ability must have preceeded the crossings of humans (of any type) into Australia, Micronesia, and Europe.

Now, stay with me. IF that is the case, then the OOA theory which claims that "modern humans" arose in Africa and migrated throughout the world within the last 70,000 years MUST BE wrong as evidence for humans exists prior to that.

All of this other stuff is a tangent to the main point which is, can OOA be sustained?

Minimalist -

Very cogently stated, and I agree completely.

The watershed - or Continental Divide, as it were - here,

Is not whether "modern" cognition arrived simultaneously

With "modern" morphology, but

This question:

"By how many thousands, or tens of thousands of years,

Did "modern" cognition precede

"Modern" morphology?

Furthermore, what were the migration/expansion patterns of

The peoples who spread this cognitive ability

Prior to OOA?



Boats, hematite.


john
"Man is a marvellous curiosity. When he is at his very, very best he is sort of a low-grade nickel-plated angel; at his worst he is unspeakable, unimaginable; and first and last and all the time he is a sarcasm."

Mark Twain
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Cognito
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Bednarik

Post by Cognito »

This is going to be a lot to chew on, and I suspect the genetic argument will win out in the final analysis. Maybe Cogs has some thoughts here.
Beags, thanks for the kudos but it has been decades since I studied genetics. And that was molecular genetics with an emphasis on pathology under Stanley Falkow at the Univ. of Washington in Seattle (reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_Falkow ). In reviewing Bednarik's article:

1. Bednarik believes that cultural selective breeding for gracile traits progressively reduced robust genes (first in the females) in all world populations over the last 40,000 years in addition to genetic drift and introgression. He states that this type of selective breeding is continuing today.

2. Bednarik maintains that there is no evidence of mass migration from Africa prior to 28,000 years ago and that the Aurignacians display definite Neanderthaloid characteristics while their technologies are attributed to moderns who are not found in the archaeological digs.

3. Bednarik believes the genetic clock being used to differentiate HSS from Neanderthals is flawed and states further the difference in genetics between Neanderthals and moderns are minimal. He refers to Neanderthals as H. sapiens neanderthalis.

In dealing with his first point, I do not believe Bednarik can convince anyone that worldwide cultural selective breeding for gracile characteristics is realistic without outside influence. As evidenced in North America, Clovis points rapidly spread through an existing population since the technology put more food on the table (reference: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... ans_2.html ). However, in this case gracile genetics are required (a donor). Most cultures will readily accept improvements and, quite possibly, we are experiencing the first evidence of the traveling salesman on the move, sowing gracile genetics through a robust population. If it becomes slightly easier for a female to give birth to a gracile hybrid due to reduced head volume -- Voila! A takeover of the local genome has occurred over a few generations. However, our salesman needed to bed this babe: :roll:

Image

I find Bednarik's second point most interesting and in conformity with recent research by Trinkaus, Wolpoff and others (see: http://sci.tech-archive.net/Archive/sci ... 00006.html ). There is no evidence that the Aurignacians were anything but robust specimins, and possibly Neanderthals that were becoming hybridized due to introgression. However, no gracile specimens are found in Europe prior to 28,000 years ago while the Aurignacian culture was evident from at least 40,000 years ago. The morphology of finds points to robust hybrids. Do they leave any traces in today's genetics? Probably not, with the possible exception of the brain D allele (see: http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/abstract/0606966103v1 ) and FOXP2 (see: http://johnhawks.net/weblog/reviews/nea ... _2007.html ). Wolpoff argues that Neanderthal characteristics are still evident in today's population. 8)

Image

Bednarik's argument with a "selective" genetic clock being used to track haplogroups is probably valid. However, it doesn't mean OOA is dead. It simply means that OOA started to fan out in significant numbers more recently, and that many of the haplogroup families were established in Africa prior to leaving home. The human genetic family tree still demonstrates that our haplogroups originate in an unbroken string back to Africa even though the timing might be off.

Image

Estimating where and when haplogroups showed up using a genetic clock based on an inexact science is a hazardous profession since the results can be off by orders of magnitude. There is a dirty little secret in the lab: anomolous results are "thrown out" and often there is pressure to smooth the data points to match the expected outcome. Talk to any scientist after a few beers. Proutsch took it to an extreme by just guessing; however, others try to do their best with less than adequate source materials on hand, equipment, etc.

Image

I expect to see a scenario where OOA populations really didn't impact Eurasia until after the LGM about 24,000 years ago. Prior to then, they would simply have incorporated into a homegrown population, hybridizing in some cases. Later on, when the effects of the LGM decreased local populations to the breaking point, in comes OOA in a big way to take over real estate, picking up genes through hybridization along the way. It makes more sense to me from a timeline standpoint. Given that the human genome was widely variable prior to the bottleneck I prefer the following nomenclature for those populations surviving the Toba event:

H. sapien sapien
H. sapien neanderthalis
H. sapien erectus


Further, there is a wildcard that was thrown into the mix as outlined by John and others: boats and hematite. Gracile characteristics could have spread from worldwide maritime activities as early as 40-60,000 years ago. This is not a total replacement scenario such as OOA, but a gradual conversion of populations from robust to gracile due to consistent and recurring contact with gracile mariners who traveled to explore the seas out of curiosity. It's called wanderlust.

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Natural selection favors the paranoid
Rokcet Scientist

Post by Rokcet Scientist »

'Wanderlust' as the motivator, and main reason, for man's conquest of the world sounds very thin in my ears. Imo sustenance (food/drink), sex, and shelter, in that order, are the prime motivators that determine man's activities, including his travels.
Compared to those 'wanderlust', maybe we should call it curiosity, is a minor motivator for man's activities. Imho, of course.
Last edited by Rokcet Scientist on Mon May 05, 2008 6:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Cognito
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Motivators

Post by Cognito »

How 'bout food, sex and curiosity?
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rich
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Post by rich »

How about some big ass flaming rock landed in their village from out of the sky?
i'm not lookin' for who or what made the earth - just who got me dizzy by makin it spin
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Cognito
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Post by Cognito »

Would you believe ... a smoldering baseball hit by a midget?

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Beagle
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Post by Beagle »

Great post up there Cogs. Your thoughts are mirroring some of the discussions going on right now across the net. Most of the folks in the Bizz believe that Bednarik is making his case archaeologically but does not produce enough of a genetic argument to sell his theory. Genetics again - that's where the whole problem started, and with Protsch! We'll see what happens over time. :wink:
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Re: Motivators

Post by Forum Monk »

Cognito wrote:How 'bout food, sex and curiosity?
a) an urge to spread out a bit and look for greener pastures and stake a bigger claim or
b) a sense of adventure.

I think curiosity is a motivator as well - wondering what's over the next hill or over the horizon. Its very natural urge in some, often myself included.
Wanderlust, imo, carries a sense of aimlessness and I think it was more deliberate.
rich wrote:How about some big ass flaming rock landed in their village from out of the sky?


Yeah - that too. Well maybe not flaming rocks but natural disasters.
Rokcet Scientist

Re: Motivators

Post by Rokcet Scientist »

Forum Monk wrote:
Cognito wrote:How 'bout food, sex and curiosity?
a) an urge to spread out a bit and look for greener pastures and stake a bigger claim or
b) a sense of adventure.

I think curiosity is a motivator as well
Of course. Just not a prime motivator.
rich wrote:How about some big ass flaming rock landed in their village from out of the sky?


Yeah - that too. Well maybe not flaming rocks but natural disasters.
Which falls under the heading of 'shelter', afaic.
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Post by Minimalist »

I wonder about the curiosity factor. To over-generalize, it seems that a person may be "curious" but groups tend to be conservative. I can't see where an entire group would seek to move without some pressing need to their survival pushing them on. To be sure, logic would dictate sending someone to scout ahead but does the logic hold in this case? One man, or two, armed with spears, would be easy prey for predators and their loss to a small group would be devastating. This isn't Daniel Boone going over the hill with his rifle in hand to see what was there.

Somehow the idea of "safety in numbers" seems more compelling. The whole group moved together when they had to.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

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Post by Rokcet Scientist »

Minimalist wrote:The whole group moved together when they had to.
Agreed. And imo the operative part here is 'had to'. It was a big, bad world out there with many predators and other dangers. Imo they moved only to find (better) sustenance, sex, or shelter, (to escape the risks/danger(s) associated with not moving).
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Post by Minimalist »

Yeah...and even if there were no predators or other humans with an attitude what does this mean in a naturalistic sense. One thing it might mean is that there was insufficient game to support those predators or other humans? Or a lack of potable water? Striking out into the unknown could not have been a decision reached lightly.

Once again we have to get away from the idea that these were the Visigoths loading up their carts and driving their herds before them. These were HG groups with a very narrow margin of survival and almost totally tied to the land.

Unless......they stayed near the coast.

(Cue John...boats reference needed.)

:wink:
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

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Post by Forum Monk »

I doubt there were any more predators than there are today in a natural setting such as the south american jungle or the african savannah. The risk of predation is present but not a deterent in my opinion. A habitat can only support so many predators and HS was at the top of the food chain even though he was not as large or strong as many common predators in those ancient times.
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Post by Minimalist »

HS was at the top of the food chain

Yes, because of teamwork. One-on-one, my money is on the cat.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin
rich
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Post by rich »

Wonder if they had any of those massive roving hordes of soldier ants or groups of killer bees back then?
i'm not lookin' for who or what made the earth - just who got me dizzy by makin it spin
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