Philo's guide to decoding the Hebrew Bible

[Ishtar]

So...why would Peter have never heard of "Mary?"

Because he was yet to be introduced to Mary and Paul by Albert Grossman and go on to make Puff, the Magic Dragon?

[Minimalist]

But my point is, nothing you have said or your article says rules it out.

And nothing in Josephus or Pliny gives any suggestion that this was a community of "scribes," either.

The point is that anyone could have decided to bury that trove in the caves and they would have had 4 years to decide to do it.

[Minimalist]

So...why would Peter have never heard of "Mary?"

Because he was yet to be introduced to Mary and Paul by Albert Grossman and go on to make Puff, the Magic Dragon?

[Ishtar]

But my point is, nothing you have said or your article says rules it out.

And nothing in Josephus or Pliny gives any suggestion that this was a community of "scribes," either.

The point is that anyone could have decided to bury that trove in the caves and they would have had 4 years to decide to do it.

Do you know, Min, you're right.

In fact, I'm seriously beginning to wonder if the grass was green in the first century CE. I mean, Josephus never said it was green, did he? For all we know, it could have been purple ... or pink even!

[Minimalist]

I doubt that "grass" is/was a big problem in ancient Judaea.

[seeker]

Well, I have a King James Bible in my collection. But I don't believe it's true.

There's also something about knowing what the other side is thinking.

Another book I have in my extensive collection is The Art of War written in the 6th century BC. by Sun Tzu. I think he recommends that ... keep your friends close, but your enemies closer!

Well, we kind of end up with an open door then, could have been anybody.

[seeker]

I doubt that "grass" is/was a big problem in ancient Judaea.

I think it would be better if it had been though. I'd much rather that the Catholic Church had been obsessed with creating tasty snack foods (including the Holy Oreo Cookie) than inquisitions and torture.

[Ishtar]

I agree with Ishtar, Min.

I’m sick to death about hearing about Josephus ad infinitum ... it’s Josephus this and Josephus that ... like no-one else’s views were of any value whatsoever, especially poor Pliny the Elder whose "writings are somewhat dated" according to Min, unlike, of course, precious Josephus, whose writings from the mid first century CE are the very height of modernity and fresh off the press.

Why do we always have to care what Josephus says, or doesn’t say, about every little thing? Why can nothing exist unless Josephus says it did?

Just look at this.

Here’s Pliny. What do we think, ladies. Hot or wot? Look at the way his hair curls so perfectly around his forehead!





And here we have Josephus.



Look at that miserable, patrician face — and what about that nose? How could anyone with a nose the size of Pinocchio’s be relied on to tell us the truth about anything?

So I know who I'm going to believe about the Essenes. Pliny the Elder rocks!

Hope that helps, Ishtar.

Tarah for now.






Glenda Slagg
Gossip columnist to the stars

[Minimalist]

Why do we always have to care what Josephus says, or doesn’t say, about every little thing? Why can nothing exist unless Josephus says it did?

Because he's all we have?

You know, you can speculate about electronic garage door openers in ancient Palestine or television. Josephus mentions neither. However, we can only comment on what he does mention because he is the only history of the time which has survived more or less intact. (Tacitus is fragmented and Justus of Tiberias was lost.) If we had either of those sources intact it would certainly help in understanding what was going on in the first century AD.





But we don't.

[Ishtar]

But why do you discount Pliny the Elder's evidence about the Essenes living about 20 miles from where the scrolls were found?

In those days, readers were writers ... they had to be. Every sect would have had its scribes and just because Josephus doesn't mention them - well, he didn't mention their toilet habits either but I presume they had loos?

Even if the Essenes didn't write the Dead Sea Scrolls or copy them, we know they had scrolls that contained the ancient scriptures, that fit the description of the Dead Sea Scrolls ... so why couldn't the Essenes not have just travelled a few miles down the road and buried them?

They may not have, of course. It could have been anyone, as Seeker says. But you're insisting that it couldn't have been the Essenes ... and there is no evidence to support that.

You're also insisting that they were buried just before the sacking of the temple, and there's no evidence - let alone from Josephus - to support that.

[seeker]

The problem with open doors is that anyone can walk in.

This from Wiki:

Many scholars believe that the community at Qumran that allegedly produced the Dead Sea Scrolls was an offshoot of the Essenes; however, this theory has been disputed by Norman Golb and other scholars.

Golb, for instance, uses strong arguments defending that primary research on the Qumran documents and ruins (by Father Roland de Veux, from the École Biblique et Archéologique de Jérusalem) lacked scientific method, originating wrong conclusions that comfortably entered the academic canon. For Golb, the amount of documents is too extensive and includes many different writing styles and calygraphies; the ruins seem to have been a fortress, used as a military basis on a very long period of time - including century I - so that they could not be inhabited by the Essenes; and the large graveyard excavated in 1870, just 50 metres east of the Qumran ruins was made of over 1,200 tombs that included many women and children - Plinius clearly wrote that "the Essenes that lived near the Dead Sea had no women, had renounced to any sexual desire and no one was born in their race". Golb's book presents sharp observations about de Vaux's premature conclusions and their unargued acceptance in general academic community. He states that the documents probably were part of the Jerusalem Library, kept safe in the desert from the Roman invasions.[4]

[Minimalist]

I don't discount it...but it ignores history..or rather, YOU ignore history.

Pliny's source, Agrippa, wrote c 15 BC. Herod the Great still ruled at the time.

As noted here:

http://orion.mscc.huji.ac.il/symposiums ... on98.shtml

Archaeological work by Jodi Magness, Yaacov Meshorer, et al. shows Qumran was occupied at the time of M. Agrippa, who died in 12 B.C.E. This corrects the dating of the periods by de Vaux. The destruction of Qumran Ib was either near the end of Herod's life (perhaps he turned against Essenes) or in the disturbances shortly after his death in 3 BCE.20

There were serious disturbances upon Herod's death. Quinctillius Varus and the Syrian Army were forced to intervene to restore order and Herod's sons' thrones.

Josephus and Philo are, at least, writing within the period in which they lived. Pliny (who was a contemporary of both) was nonetheless using a source which was over 80 years old by the time of the Great Revolt.

Finally, it seems odd that the Essenes, who were obviously known pacifists, would be involved in any fighting at all. However, as Magen and Peleg have pointed out, there was a time when Qumran was a fortress and, if the position was so strategic that someone built a fort there then the position remained strategic enough for others....Roman or rebel....to have wanted to destroy it. They would certainly not have been the first "innocents" to get wrapped up in someone else's war.

[Ishtar]

I'm not ignoring history.

History, in the form of Pliny's informer, tells us that in 15 BC, the Essenes lived near where to the Dead Sea Scrolls were found.

There is nothing to connect that fort with the Essenes, who lived at Ein Gedi, 20 miles away from it. So whether they were pacifists or not is irrelevant.

In addition, no-one is saying that whoever buried the documents near the fort, lived there. But because you are igoring a historical eye witness account, you are coming to false conclusions.

Philo also says that that the Essenes lived from 200 BC - a hundred years before that fort at which they never lived was built.

[Minimalist]

The site was apparently in use by the military since the first temple period....probably Hezekiah since that is when the kingdom seems to have come together. We can quibble about whether or not that constitutes a "fort."

http://crusadefortruth.blogspot.com/200 ... heory.html

According to aerial dating, the pools were added onto original structures built in the First Temple period, or Iron Age, circa 700 BCE. The paper also deduces that until it was destroyed in the Babylonian conquest in 586 BCE, the first site was a military post - not fort - as it was the only place on the northwest shore that was protected from floods, and so could maintain a safe lookout.

Nonetheless, this is not news:

This hypothesis, that the scrolls were hidden - not written - at Qumran, builds on the earlier theories of University of Chicago archeologist Norman Golb, who has argued that the site was not Essene and that the scrolls were probably the remains of Second Temple Jerusalem libraries.

istory, in the form of Pliny's informer, tells us that in 15 BC, the Essenes lived near where to the Dead Sea Scrolls were found.

Josephus has them living there much later than that. So what?

In addition, no-one is saying that whoever buried the documents near the fort, lived there.

I don't know where you get that from. That is exactly the argument that de Vaux made. He has envisioned a whole monastery on the site at Qumran....complete with "monks" sitting at tables copying documents...as they did in medieval France.

Philo also says that that the Essenes lived from 200 BC - a hundred years before that fort at which they never lived was built.

As previously noted, the Essenes were seen as a reaction to the abuses of the main two groups. That seriously argues against them existing prior to the emergence of the Pharisees and the Sadduccees.

[seeker]

What would make sense though is an influential group of people using a military installation as a place to produce propaganda documents. The Sadducees were in charge after the Maccabean revolt. They could easily have used that installation as a safe place to keep the documents until they were ready to be released.