Philo's guide to decoding the Hebrew Bible

Ishtar · Post by **Ishtar** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 12:37 pm

I can't help what de Vaux said and neither am I repeating it. So why bring it up?

History tell us that the Essenes lived at En Gedi, twenty miles from the fort at Qumram, which they never lived in.

History tell us that the Dead Sea Scrolls were not found at the fort at Qumran. They were found in 11 caves ranging from 125 meters and a 1000 meters from the settlement at Qumran.

The manuscripts date from the 2nd century BC. The Essenes date from the 2nd century BC.

The fort dates from the 1st century BC.

Therefore the Essenes, and the manuscripts, pre date the fort at which the Essenes never lived and in which the manuscripts were not buried.

Therefore, the fort is a red herring.

Therefore, we don't know who buried those manuscripts but the Essenes cannot be ruled out.

Ishtar · Post by **Ishtar** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 12:39 pm

seeker wrote:What would make sense though is an influential group of people using a military installation as a place to produce propaganda documents. The Sadducees were in charge after the Maccabean revolt. They could easily have used that installation as a safe place to keep the documents until they were ready to be released.

Seeker, the manuscripts were not found inside the fort.

THey were found in caves, which had existed for millions of years before the fort was built and some of which were 100 meters away.

The manus date to 2nd century BC. The fort dates to 1st century BC.

seeker · Post by **seeker** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 1:01 pm

I know that Ish, the documents that were in the fort were probably hidden during either the Roman Smackdown I in 70CE or Roman Smackdown II in 135 CE.

I'll grant its possible the Essenes dragged their library to some caves 20 miles away to hide them but couldn't they have found a closer place? It seems kind of odd to hide such precious documents so far away

Post by **Minimalist** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 1:15 pm

The manuscripts date from the 2nd century BC. The Essenes date from the 2nd century BC.

As previously discussed, the 2d century BC runs from 99 (or 100) BC to 199 (or 200) BC. That time span is certainly within the time frame for the rise of all 3 of the factions involved.

But I agree with seeker. The Maccabaean Revolt with the re-establishment of Jewish independence is the catalyst for all of this stuff. Not the least of which is the revisions of the OT...if not the downright writing of them...not only dating to this time but serving the political agenda of the Maccabees.

Post by **Minimalist** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 1:33 pm

Sticking with Magen and Peleg...

Rather than Nabatean, they hold that the fort was built by the Hasmonean Jannai family who conquered Samaria and the Jerusalem environs and built other such fortresses along the eastern borders of Judea against invading Nabateans. Because of the Roman conquest, the Hasmonean leaders had no need for army posts and the site, says Peleg, was transformed for practical civilian purposes.

The Hasmoneans overran Galilee and Samaria and the rest near the end of the second century BC. (They were still into their expansionist phase!)
So, the fort was converted to civilian use prior to the first century AD...probably in the mid-first century BC.

The simple fact is we don't know who hid the trove. "Could" it have been the Essenes? Sure. It could have been damn near anyone. But the orthodox opinion which these two are challenging is the Essene Monastery theory which has been "blessed" by the Club and they act as if it is heresy to challenge it.

Seeker raises a good point. Why would the Essenes travel 20 miles when there had to be similar locations in the Ein Gedi area? The whole geology of the Dead Sea is pretty bleak.

seeker · Post by **seeker** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 1:51 pm

Especially when you think about the logistics. 20 miles is a good days walk and they had to basically carry all of those pots and scrolls. Not only that but this mob of people carrying pots and scrolls was trying to do it in secret so they'd have been trying to avoid being seen and avoiding the roads.

Post by **Minimalist** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 2:04 pm

Logistically you're looking at a couple of oxcarts on a five day trip over lousy roads.

I still suspect that the documents were taken out of Jerusalem by someone with enough foresight to know what was coming....probably after the Romans crushed the rebellion in the north. They would have had all the time they needed because the Romans were stalled while the whole Vespasian-is-going-to-be-Emperor thing was worked out but there can't be any doubt that eventually the Romans were going to come calling.

Ishtar · Post by **Ishtar** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 2:11 pm

Minimalist wrote:Logistically you're looking at a couple of oxcarts on a five day trip over lousy roads.

I still suspect that the documents were taken out of Jerusalem by someone with enough foresight to know what was coming....

But I can't have them coming from 20 miles down the road, from Ein Gedi, because it was too far for the Essenes to carry them? Oh yes, that's it, the Essenes couldn' t have had ox carts because Josephus doesn't say they had them.

... even thought they were addicted to animal husbandry ...

seeker · Post by **seeker** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 2:34 pm

Why would they want to marry their animals?

If we allow for planning and say that they were taking their time transferring them there then again we can say anyone put them there.

Why is it so important that Essenes put them there, Ish?

Ishtar · Post by **Ishtar** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 2:48 pm

seeker wrote:Why would they want to marry their animals?

If we allow for planning and say that they were taking their time transferring them there then again we can say anyone put them there.

Why is it so important that Essenes put them there, Ish?

EDIT ADDED LATER: Min, I was directing this at you:

It's not ... and I could equally say the same to you.

Why is it so important that someone put them there who was saving them from the sacking of the Jerusalem Temple?

I am only trying to point that you are dismissing the Essenes theory lightly, and with no evidence, so you can have your Jerusalem temple idea.

All along I've only said ..."you cannot rule them out." That's all ...

seeker · Post by **seeker** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 2:54 pm

I didn't realize i had a Jerusalem Temple idea.

I tend to think that that site was likely a hasmonean fort used to house a bunch of scribes but I'm not married to the idea.

I only ask because I'm trying to see what significance you put in the Dead Sea Scrolls being an Essene library.

Ishtar · Post by **Ishtar** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 3:08 pm

seeker wrote:I didn't realize i had a Jerusalem Temple idea.

I tend to think that that site was likely a hasmonean fort used to house a bunch of scribes but I'm not married to the idea.

I only ask because I'm trying to see what significance you put in the Dead Sea Scrolls being an Essene library.

Oh no, I'm so sorry, Seeker. I thought I was replying to Min!

OK, in that case I can be a bit nicer because I'm not replying to someone who is totally stubborn and totally wedded to one idea (unlike the one idea I am stubbornly wedded to!

)

So to you I can admit that I have no idea who wrote the scrolls or who buried them, and I don't think anyone else has. So my point only is that we cannot rule out the Essenes, because on the state of the evidence we have, nothing can be ruled out and nothing can be ruled in.

Interestingly, to move us off this (because Min and I are capable of slugging this one out forever and it will get deadly dull) here's another angle.

Why were they buried in the caves of Qumran?

Well, according to Copper Scroll, they were buried all over Israel and not just manuscripts but buried treasure too - although it's not worth much!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea_scrolls

Cave 3

One of the most curious scrolls is the Copper Scroll. Discovered in Cave 3, this scroll records a list of 67 underground hiding places throughout the land of Israel. According to the scroll, the deposits contain certain amounts of gold, silver, aromatics, and manuscripts. These are believed to be treasures from the Temple at Jerusalem that were hidden away for safekeeping. The Copper Scroll is currently being translated and the first two sections reveal the location of gold ingots and silver in the form of Shekels (a coin used in Israel in ancient times). According to Biblical Currency is equal to .364 oz. (troy). In a value of silver, it is equal to $7.28. As for gold, it is equal to $364.

So most of these hiding places have not yet been found.

Ishtar · Post by **Ishtar** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 3:19 pm

seeker wrote:I know that Ish, the documents that were in the fort were probably hidden during either the Roman Smackdown I in 70CE or Roman Smackdown II in 135 CE.

I'll grant its possible the Essenes dragged their library to some caves 20 miles away to hide them but couldn't they have found a closer place? It seems kind of odd to hide such precious documents so far away

Unless you didn't want to be associated with them if they were found.

My point to both you and Min is: what evidence do you have that they were buried as the result of any Smackdown?

seeker · Post by **seeker** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 3:27 pm

Ishtar wrote: Unless you didn't want to be associated with them if they were found.

My point to both you and Min is: what evidence do you have that they were buried as the result of any Smackdown?

None, isn't that what makes it fun to fight about?

Ishtar · Post by **Ishtar** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 3:30 pm

Just before I go to bed... this one looks interesting in the light of our discussions about the mystery teachings and the hidden secret wisdom.

It is called the Book of Mysteries and is thought to be by the Essenes on Wiki, but I don't know if they've really bottomed that out. It's also called The Secrets of the Way Thing Are - the Essenes followed The Way.

Anyway, it sounds like a typical mystery teaching and Gnostic. And as it is dated to the 1st century BC, this gives us another early attestation for the Gnostics:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Book_of_Mysteries

The Book of Mysteries (also known as the Book of Secrets) is an ancient Essene text found in fragmentary form among the Dead Sea Scrolls. The scroll fragments are given the alpha-numeric designations of 1Q27 and 4Q299-301. The Book of Mysteries is closely related to another unnamed wisdom book found among the Dead Sea Scrolls, variously called Sapiential Work or The Secret of the Way Things Are. In both texts, the term “raz” occurs frequently. “Raz” means “mystery” or “secret,” and is defined as a type of wisdom or knowledge that is known by God and can only be known by humans by divine revelation (Harrington 2000:588-589). This word often occurs in the phrase “raz nihyeh” which can be translated as “the secret of the way things are.” (Wise, Abegg, and Cook 2005:109). The assumption behind The Book of Mysteries is that revelation, not reason, is the key to wisdom. The book is authored by an unnamed teacher who claims to be the recipient of such a revelation and is passing it along to his students.

As with many of the Dead Sea Scrolls, the question of who wrote the scrolls and when has no definite answer. We can make an estimate, however, as to when the manuscripts were copied. The copy of mystery text 1Q27 has been dated on paelographic grounds to the end of the first century BCE, so the book is at least that old (Larson 2000:587). Lawrence Schiffman believes that the ideology, orthography, and language of the texts show that it originates from the same circle as other sectarian works found among the Dead Sea Scrolls (Larson 2000:588).

The tone of the writing reflects an elite group which believes that it alone holds the correct understanding of YHWH's plan for the universe and how to please Him so as to be saved from the fate of the ignorant and hypocritical. Much of The Book of Mysteries appears to be a teaching of correction against those who do not live righteously in the author's eyes. They warn of the hypocrisy of nations, the false knowledge of magicians, and the wrath of God upon sinners. They especially warn against the fate of those who do not recognize the divine mysteries.

But they did not know the secret of the way things are nor did they understand the things of old and they did not know what would come upon them, so they did not rescue themselves by means of the secret of the way things are 1Q27; Wise, Abegg, and Cook 2005:110).

The eschatology of the book is rather unusual. The end time described by the author does not manifest itself in the normal culmination of a battle, judgment, or catastrophe, but rather as “a steady increase of light, [through which] darkness is made to disappear or in which iniquity dissolves and just as the smoke rising into the air eventually dissipates” (Piper 1958:97).

In this sense, wisdom is an inevitable force that needs to be yielded to by those who choose to accept it and are capable of understanding it. There is no mention of angels, or YHWH's coming, or resurrection of the wise, or any of the typical Messianic language that we usually associate with Judeo-Christian eschatological texts. It simply argues for a change in focus from folly to wisdom, and therefore righteousness.