Archaeologica.org

Minimalist wrote:Yeah...and even if there were no predators or other humans with an attitude what does this mean in a naturalistic sense. One thing it might mean is that there was insufficient game to support those predators or other humans? Or a lack of potable water? Striking out into the unknown could not have been a decision reached lightly.

Once again we have to get away from the idea that these were the Visigoths loading up their carts and driving their herds before them. These were HG groups with a very narrow margin of survival and almost totally tied to the land.

Unless......they stayed near the coast.

(Cue John...boats reference needed.)

Minimalist -

Two approaches.

Number One:

Cimate

Predators

Weather

Good hunting/gathering grounds.

Mobility gives you the edge for all of these, and

Watergoing mobility used the least energy for

The maximum yield.

Number Two:

The Cognitive.

How can I build a better mousetrap,

And where?

I would posit that travel, per se, is

Not driven by wanderlust, but by

The conception of a theory which,

In essence, says,

"If I modify both my location and my environmental adaptations vis a vis

Techne, my life will become quantifiably better."


Combine the two

And, for me,

Boats kinda jump right on top of the list.

Yesssss?


john

Or perhaps the motivator was trade. If you build a boat just to discover whatever is beyond the horizon, then meet a different tribe the differences in culture are likely to produce different clothes, ornaments etc. A small amount of trade may occur in that joyriding trip. That small amount of trade might encourage someone to make the voyage primarily to trade.

What if the mariners were the gracile ones and the robust population sees them as fabulous and wealthy? Could that not cause sexual attraction? i think it would. This could over many generations account for the gracilization of HS.

You know, John, it's more than just the coasts that need to be considered, although I agree with you as far as it goes.

The world is criss-crossed with small rivers and those would be major impediments to anyone who did not have the ability to build a boat...or at least a sturdy raft depending on the current. No group is going to swim across a decent size river.

Rivers eventually empty into the sea and when they do they are at their widest point although granted the current has usually subsided by that point. Even a group moving strictly overland along the coast will eventually find themselves boxed in between the sea, the way they have just come and a river. If OOA was totally correct it still seems necessary for there to have been sufficient maritime technology to get across the rivers.

Dannan, once you have the boat it becomes a very useful means for a lot of different purposes. The trick is getting The Club to admit that there simply HAD to be boats.

i was giving RS another possiblility for a primary motivator.

was giving RS another possiblility for a primary motivator.

Did you have to?

The trick is getting The Club to admit that there simply HAD to be boats.

Of late, I haven't seen any researcher deny the use of boats. It's impossible to deny in the migration to Australia (that is, if one wants his paper to pass peer review and get published).

As far as Bednariks extreme date of 800,000 ya. there is only silence however. No denials - just silence.

But the issue is not in doubt.

The legal maxim is "silence means consent."

Minimalist wrote:You know, John, it's more than just the coasts that need to be considered, although I agree with you as far as it goes.

The world is criss-crossed with small rivers and those would be major impediments to anyone who did not have the ability to build a boat...or at least a sturdy raft depending on the current. No group is going to swim across a decent size river.

Rivers eventually empty into the sea and when they do they are at their widest point although granted the current has usually subsided by that point. Even a group moving strictly overland along the coast will eventually find themselves boxed in between the sea, the way they have just come and a river. If OOA was totally correct it still seems necessary for there to have been sufficient maritime technology to get across the rivers.

Minimalist -

Not only small rivers. Think of the Mississippi, then look at it, and all its tributaries on a large scale map as it travels North. River travel is an incredibly convenient, low energy way to get into huge expanses of territory. Lewis and Clark used this "archaic" methodology in their epic journey to the West coast of North America, if you want to read an historic account of what this travel was like.

Large lakes - take the Great Lakes of North America. Think those weren't used for travel and for subsistence? By boat?

Finally - and this is irresistible - ice.

What is the famous Inuit dogsled but another hullform marvelously designed for frozen water?

Different form of propulsion than paddle or sail, of course.

Which brings up the ultimate date of domestication of what we now refer to as sled-dogs. Interesting potential discussion there........

Food for thought, yessssss?


hoka hey

john

Hey John, that ties neatly into the theory of the pack ice invasion of the Americas by the Solutreans from western Europe during LGM. A.k.a. Clovis.
And the Solutreans were the progeny of Aurignacians right? The brilliant cave painters. The same brilliant cave painters that are now being reconsidered to really have been Neandertaloids that were in the process of rapidly evolving into gracile modern man, instead of a separate 'Cro-Magnon' homo strain, supposedly OOA.

HSN was our direct granddaddy, it seems.

These are interesting times.

Rokcet Scientist wrote:Hey John, that ties neatly into the theory of the pack ice invasion of the Americas by the Solutreans from western Europe during LGM. A.k.a. Clovis.
And the Solutreans were the progeny of Aurignacians right? The brilliant cave painters. The same brilliant cave painters that are now being reconsidered to really have been Neandertaloids that were in the process of rapidly evolving into gracile modern man, instead of a separate 'Cro-Magnon' homo strain, supposedly OOA.

HSN was our direct granddaddy, it seems.

These are interesting times.

Interesting times indeed. And according to Bednarik, the Neanderthals were the people responsible for the Aurignacian tool industry. I'm waiting for several people to render their opinion on his paper and at some point I'll start a new discussion on the Mythical Moderns.