The study of religious or heroic legends and tales. One constant rule of mythology is that whatever happens amongst the gods or other mythical beings was in one sense or another a reflection of events on earth. Recorded myths and legends, perhaps preserved in literature or folklore, have an immediate interest to archaeology in trying to unravel the nature and meaning of ancient events and traditions.
Ishtar wrote:This is why I said to you earlier that the shaman has always been a part and parcel of the community he serves, so why should you now decide he has to be a hermit?
I never said they should be a hermit. I said they would have no need to advertise or charge a fee. Besides, many of the people who would best be served by a shaman, if they indeed could heal, may not be able to pay with cash.
Why not try a shamanic healing, sometime? Then you'll be in a better position to make the judgement as to how phoney it is?
He's probably as good as Hinn when it comes to healing. Better, since Hill would at least make me laugh.
Lots of shamans give their services for free too, and just charge those that can afford it.
Out of curiosity. Can you show me documentation that Shaman can heal better than a faith healer? Do the blind see, deaf hear? Any limbs grow back? Paraplegics walk? Or is it more, "I heard of a guy..."?
Shouldn't be hart to do better than a faith healer since most have pretty bad records, when it comes to documentary evidence.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.
Have been sitting out the fray, as I have been traveling for the last week, with limited internet access. But now that I have had a chance to catch up, ...I have to say....some of you guys, and in this case I do mean guys, need to stand back and look at the quality(?!) of your syntax. From here, I find a lot of it to be a an ugly and embarrassing read.
Stones and glass houses rarely mix.
BTW. Compliments to the powers that be.... as at a first glimpse the re-design of the main forum page appears to be a skillful way to re-direct participants to the threads that actually interest them so that perhaps those who are invested in the pleasures of self serving vitriol might have more trouble finding a place to roost.
woodrabbit wrote:
BTW. Compliments to the powers that be.... as at a first glimpse the re-design of the main forum page appears to be a skillful way to re-direct participants to the threads that actually interest them so that perhaps those who are invested in the pleasures of self serving vitriol might have more trouble finding a place to roost.
Wood - it's a brilliant solution and I'm overcome with gratitude to Michelle for coming up with it!
From The emergence of the representation of animals in palaeoart: Insights from evolution and the cognitive, limbic and visual systems of the human brain, Derek Hodgson and Patricia A. Helvenston.
Evidence for the use of disguises comes mainly from hybrid human/animal figures, usually with animal-like heads and human bodies. They seem to be part of the earliest ‘art’ as is found in a therianthrope sculpture from Germany, dated to around 33 000 BP, with the head of a lion and the body/legs of a human (Conard 2003). There is a strange creature painted on a hanging rock at Chauvet Cave, which appears to be a bison standing upright on human legs. We also find depictions of therianthropic figures in Lascaux and Gabillou (the figure in the latter has obvious horns) or the ‘wounded men’ of Cougnac and Pech Merle. In addition to the sorcerer figure at Trois Frères, there is a bison-headed humanoid (Bahn and Vertut 1997: 165) that bears some resemblance to North American Indians disguised as bison for a dance or a hunt (Giedion 1965: 374). Some researchers believe the vertical bison of Castillo is also depicted with human legs (Bahn and Vertut op. cit.: 166). Leroi-Gourhan estimated that there are about 15 sites that have composite figures, with about six in each, some of which do not appear to be humanoid (Bahn and Vertut op. cit.). Given the number of Palaeolithic images of animals, these few therianthropes may be early examples of figures that might not only be associated with hunting disguises, but may also represent some of the earliest depictions of mythological supernatural spirits. The ‘sorcerer’ is a very strange beast; the upright position and the legs and hands are human, it has the back and ears of an herbivore, the antlers of a reindeer, the tail of a horse, and a phallus reminiscent of a feline. Such a creature suggests a more complex figure than a mere hunting disguise. At least some of the figures may simply represent human hunting disguises that allowed the hunter to draw near to prey (Thackeray 1993; Guthrie 1984). Manaseryan (2003) has identified human figures wearing masks in the context of scenes portraying the hunting of animals in rock art from Armenia dated to 5000 years BP. Extraordinary evidence comes from a photograph taken by W. H. C. Taylor in 1934, of an individual from the San ‘Bushmen’ wearing the skin of an antelope (Thackeray 2005). The use of an animal skin costume and the adoption of a quadrupedal posture by a human figure bending forward with two sticks is strikingly similar to the imagery of more ancient Melikane rock art therianthropes of South Africa, considered to be disguised hunters. Further evidence derives from the seminomadic hunter/gatherer community of Starr Carr, Yorkshire, England, dating to around 10 000 BP, where antler ‘frontlets’ have been found which were probably worn during rituals and used as a disguise in the hunting of animals (Laing and Laing 1982; Conneller and Schadla-Hall 2003). Also, a triangular cobble from La Madeleine, France (c. 13 000 BP), has engraved upon it a human figure in upright position with two heads, one thought to be a human, the other an animal-like mask (White 2003). As a 19th–20th century example, the Bushmen of South Africa employed various animal skins, most particularly the skin of an ostrich, and there are artistic depictions of such figures in Bushmen art (Vinnicombe 1976). By this period, however, a million or so years after our early ancestors presumably first used animal disguises, which the preceding discussion on brain and cognition suggests might have been the case, the therianthropes depicted in Bushmen art assumed a complex mythical status, above and beyond simply referring to actual hunting practices. Wearing buffalo skins during the hunt was a practice that was still carried out until quite recently by some North American Plains Indians. In addition to animal skins, other assorted disguises such as masks may have been employed. The ‘sorcerer’ figure found in the cave of Les Trois Frères in the French Pyrenees wears animal accoutrements with which he may have been hunting, or possibly re-enacting a myth, both of which would be consistent with Thackeray’s findings discussed previously.
All we should be concerning ourselves with is: was shamanism a way of life for Palaeo and Neolithic man, and was what he left behind - his art and architecture - driven by shamanistic beliefs?
My quote:
All we should be concerning ourselves with is: was shamanism a way of life for Palaeo ... man, and was what he left behind - his art and architecture - driven by shamanistic beliefs?
A misrepresentation:
All we should be concerning ourselves with is: was shamanism a way of life for Palaeo man, and was what he left behind - his art and architecture - driven by shamanistic beliefs?
See the subtle difference?
More misrepresentation:
Ishtar wrote:Two of your man’s Hodgson’s major complaints about this book (that you haven't read) was that the author Lewis Williams a) did not take into account cultural differences in artistic interpretation of Neolithic art and b) that he said all Neolithic art was influenced by the altered state.
Manystones wrote:And yet you have failed to explain why you have blatantly misrepresented me:
Ishtar wrote:Manystones
When you PM-ed me the other day about my approach being 'bad for the discipline', I was too polite to say: "Bad for what discipline? The discipline of seeing faces in stones?"
But I'm not feeling so polite now after reading your arrogant remark about your post getting us ‘back to reality'.
Do you think if you ape the pomposity of the Club, they’ll accept you and your stones? You need to think again.
I write in plain language that most people can understand. So if you can’t understand what I say, you might try a local literacy class.
It took me a while to dig my mod hat out of the bottom of the closet but I do have a point to make about this item:
Ishtar wrote:
[added later] MS, I've just noticed that you edited out my word 'Neolithic' when you quoted me earlier. What are you up to?
Indeed, I used a standard convention to make this apparent "..."
Manystones, it may be apparent to you but you cannot rely on the fact that another reader coming along will note the change. While your intent may have been innocent it does open you up to a charge of trying to manipulate the words of someone else. I suggest that when quoting someone....particularly someone you are arguing with....that the entire phrase under dispute be quoted just so any misunderstandings are avoided.
It's like the old routine in the movie review business. A critic for the New York Times writes " I was astounded that this movie could be so boring." When the advertisement comes out it says:
I WAS ASTOUNDED... - NY Times.
Best to err on the side of caution I think. Personally, I've read more about this than I care to but I hold to my earlier position that for those who are interested in it it is a valid topic. For those who are not interested there are plenty of other threads on the board.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.
