Archaeology Without the Bible

[Guest]

<I think my students (freshmen psychs) may appreciate this thread as a good illustration of selective perception.>
Well, there you go. I read Spinoza a few weeks ago, and there in the midst of his laborious logic he says that after a young person has accepted an erroneous idea, not being fully educated in how to recognize one, he later becomes really ingenius in cococting defense of a falsity. As Dr. Freud would say, "neurotic"; able to function within certain limited mindrames, such as a boring job, but in a constant state of denial about certain facts that confront them.

My heart goes out; it is a chronic condition that even Dr. Freud's couch couldnt deal with very effectly or expeditiously. Freud noted that neurotics have an intolerance for ambiguity. And thus we read them now enamored of dualistic cosmology, with only black/white, evil/good, blessed/damned issues to deal with. Of course, any psychopathologist who looks at the way the cosmology was put together can see how it psychologically appeals to alpha male ego in need of redemption for its efforts to dominate others.

This cosmology of course, is mixed in with many high sounding moral principles and assumptions about the nature of man, who as they say, should have *dominion* over the earth. Which is to say, on the Earth, but not really *of* the Earth, as if there is a heirarchy modeled on their own kingdoms, of plants, animals, man, saved souls, angels, and an alpha male tyrant Father god. The kings being in between man & saved souls.

There's none of the ambiguity of a myriad life forms that wouldnt all fit on Noah's ark, nevertheless the logistics problems of getting them there. The neurotic focuses on magic numbers, and never adds it all up.

The Bagavd Gita calls them Avatars. That is forms that are created and animated by the divine, which exist soley as a challenge to the fulfillment of your kharma. The Gita never talks about the "will of god", but poses question s to you about what will of yours got you here. But anyway, the Avatars are like cosmic robots, mobile Turing machines, that are programmed to think as they do, and responds as they do. The thing about an Avatar is that you cant teach it anything. But you may learn from it.

So- I glance at their rants from time to time, and sometimes they inadvertently give me another insight into what was, is, and will be, going on. And the reality of history and pre-history is much more interesting than scripture. But sometimes, you know, you listen to propaganda, and suddenly you learn something about where its coming from.

So the reason the Fundies have become more strident, and more numerous, is that so many were driven off the fence by the challenges of modern life, and chose the simple solution of Faith. As Wallace in "Culture & Personality" notes, when a civilization is headed down the tubes, people's coping skills dont work so well any more, and they egnage in "magical thinking".( Which I guess is his contribution to the lexicon of sentient beings.)

And so we who live in the United States of Denial, hear them get louder. But we all know that wont solve the problem What's needed is more case management, but unfortunately, the case managers of previous generations practiced birth control much more professionally, while the client class didnt, and now the case load has gone thru the roof.

I hear the nurses are catching on, and realize their own reproductive problem. Maybe we should be importing nurses as well as doctors. But in anycase, the irrationality will go on at the election campaigns and voting, so there's no telling if funding for archaeology will continue. Things can get pretty chaotic if a mass of neurotics wakes up.

But maybe they aint programmed to, and we who have a clear eye on history and pre-history, are programmed to worry about where we are. But trying to teach Avatars, or give them a hard time about it, is a waste of time.

[Guest]

Well, there you go. I read Spinoza a few weeks ago, and there in the midst of his laborious logic he says that after a young person has accepted an erroneous idea, not being fully educated in how to recognize one, he later becomes really ingenius in cococting defense of a falsity. As Dr. Freud would say, "neurotic"; able to function within certain limited mindrames, such as a boring job, but in a constant state of denial about certain facts that confront them

i think you need to learn from that quote as there is not one evolutionist that can prove the Bible false. Hybrids are a good example of effort in that department but they fail every time when they go outside the mandated procedure------

http://www.greenapple.com/~jorp/amzanim/crossesa.htm

http://www.lairweb.org.nz/tiger/hybrids.html

in these pages you will find how scientists can not go outside of 'kind' not speciesto crossbreed animals.

[Minimalist]

The Yonaguni could be simply the remains of leveled foundations for wood structures.

One of the more compelling arguments that Hancock made had to do with the lack of debris at the site. Had Yonaguni been subject to natural weathering, the chipped off pieces of stone should still be there where they fell.

Instead, the chipped off rock has been removed. Surely, no one would suggest that ocean currents could move heavy stones and even if the current could move the stone, some of them would have piled up against the monument on at least the one side facing into the current.

Hancock, for his book Underworld uses "inundation maps" prepared by a Dr. Glenn Milne of Durham University. These maps show a fairly large island where Bimini now stands, opposite Florida, as late as 6,000 years ago. So certainly that time frame would be consistent with contact from the area you are speculating about, D/B.

Last night, on the Discovery Science channel, there was a special about Hancock's dives on Yonaguni as well as his investigation of Jomon culture in Japan. The quality of the photography was very good and the nature of the changes to the hill were clearly shown.

Hancock was accompanied by a German geologist, Wolf Wichman, who argued for the natural formation point of view. A Japanese geologist who has studied Yonaguni at length disputed the claim of natural formation but really only stopped Wichman short by raising the point of "where is the debris?" The films showed that the pathway at the base of the hill was clear.

Finally, an Indian marine archaeologist was brought in to dive on Yonaguni and came up pronouncing it a man made harbor. Pointing to steps and landings going down to the water line.

Now, even though he did not say this ( this is my observation) even Hancock does not suggest that the water rose all at once but rather over several thousand years. Is it not reasonable that as the water level rose that people would have to move the steps higher up the hill to continue using the port?

[Minimalist]

As a follow up, this movie

http://www.wonder-okinawa.jp/024/englis ... 4_0016.wvx


is a bit of a traveloge by the Okinawa Chamber of Commerce (I guess). Listen to the commentator in the early part of the film as she does a voice over on the photos of the island as it is today. She comments that nature has carved the rocks into strange shapes. Hold that image in your mind when you look at Yonaguni monument...there is no similarity at all to what nature is doing on land and what was done under water in pre-history.

[Guest]

i have been kind of curious about the rumors that the legend jason and the argonauts was based on real events. it would be interesting to get some leads on that

[Guest]

just so you know that i am not alone in thinking you can't have archaeology without the Bible (eventually) here is a quote fromn avrahim biran, former Israel's director of antiquities and museums, said in a lecture entitled: 'Dan and Aroer: where archaeology meets the Bible --or not' 1999

"that the Bible and archaeology are so linked, it is impossible to study one without the other".

[Minimalist]

just so you know that i am not alone in thinking you can't have archaeology without the Bible (eventually) here is a quote fromn avrahim biran, former Israel's director of antiquities and museums, said in a lecture entitled: 'Dan and Aroer: where archaeology meets the Bible --or not' 1999

"that the Bible and archaeology are so linked, it is impossible to study one without the other".

I'm sure that Maya, Neanderthal, Inca, Chinese, Japanese, etc. scholars would be as utterly unimpressed by such inate stupidity as I am.

[Leona Conner]

just so you know that i am not alone in thinking you can't have archaeology without the Bible (eventually) here is a quote fromn avrahim biran, former Israel's director of antiquities and museums, said in a lecture entitled: 'Dan and Aroer: where archaeology meets the Bible --or not' 1999

"that the Bible and archaeology are so linked, it is impossible to study one without the other".

I think he was talking about specific archaeology in the "Holy Land" not general archaeology, like in the rest of the world. I agree if you're digging in Israel then the Bible might come in handy as a reference tool but it has absolutly no bearing on what happend in parts of the world unknown to the writers of that tome in that era. After all they thought the world started at the Straits of Gibraltar and ended in Persia (or whatever it was called then).

[Guest]

I think he was talking about specific archaeology in the "Holy Land" not general archaeology, like in the rest of the world.

that may be possible, but i did not get that impression as eventually in all investigations of civilizations, the biblical record would need to be brought in and analyzed. even if it is limited to the first part of the book of Genesis, it still brings the bible into play.

along with the question, where did they get their concept of religion? even if brought in as a control, the Bible would still be brought in to help determine the rightness or wrongness of that particular belief. i do not think you can escape the fact that the Bible will help determine many things about those nations who lived outside the Holy Land.

Mainly because evolution will not be able to answer many of the questions that arise when studying them.

[Rokcet Scientist]

As a follow up, this movie

http://www.wonder-okinawa.jp/024/englis ... 4_0016.wvx
[...]

Unfortunately, I can only hear the audio track, Bob. The image is frozen.

[Minimalist]

Do you have broadband service? The movie is almost ten minutes long.