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Charlie Hatchett · Post by **Charlie Hatchett** » Sun Jan 28, 2007 11:42 pm

That is not going to get pasted on the Club House wall, Charlie!

I certainly hope not, Min.

That would be a huge insult, the way I look at it.

Post by **Minimalist** » Sun Jan 28, 2007 11:45 pm

Absolutely.

Free thinkers are not welcome.

Odd that so much of this stuff has been swept under the rug for so long just by the threat of being "too far off the mark."

Charlie Hatchett · Post by **Charlie Hatchett** » Sun Jan 28, 2007 11:51 pm

Absolutely.

Free thinkers are not welcome.

Odd that so much of this stuff has been swept under the rug for so long just by the threat of being "too far off the mark."

Theory overriding observation. And the majority of this happening in North American archeology. Why?

Post by **Minimalist** » Mon Jan 29, 2007 12:19 am

It happens in every field, everywhere. What I euphemistically call "the club" is really nothing more than human nature which is represented in every power structure. People who have climbed to the tops of their fields tend to be fairly conservative in their views and do not embrace change lightly.

To be completely fair, a lot of people do not accept change lightly. Many people are comfortable with what they know and whether or not it is true is almost of secondary importance. But let's not get back to religion.

Then guys like you come along overturning applecarts and guys like me cheer you on because I'm an anarchist at heart!

Charlie Hatchett · Post by **Charlie Hatchett** » Mon Jan 29, 2007 12:47 am

marduk · Post by **marduk** » Mon Jan 29, 2007 1:32 am

That is not going to get pasted on the Club House wall

they bought a house now ?

Anyway, that's some of my story

whens it coming out in paperback

Charlie Hatchett · Post by **Charlie Hatchett** » Mon Jan 29, 2007 5:22 am

whens it coming out in paperback

Yeah, yeah, yeah...so I was getting a little dingy there...12:30 am is late for this old man...

You crack me up, Mar!!

clubs_stink · Post by **clubs_stink** » Mon Jan 29, 2007 5:20 pm

I haven't gotten to the end of my thread catch up so forgive me if someone else has pointed this out.

Re- decomposition and the flotation of a carcass.

As soon as any creature dies decomposition commences immediately. When a human dies in the water for instance, their carcass will sink once all oxegenation has left the body, depending on the type of injury this time varies (a stab wound to the chest cavity would cause a body to sink faster.) The body WILL sink, and will stay sunk until about 36-48 hours post mortem (longer if there IS a stab wound which will allow gasses to escape instead of being trapped and raising the body) The body will normally float just above the floor of the body of water (again, variable depending on depth of water and temperature). Gasses that are a product of decay will raise a body to the surface

I cannot imagine the process being radically different for any other creature. Whales which beach themselves can suffer necropsy of the tissue due to the weight of their bodies cutting off circulation, and biological decay can in fact set in while the whale is still alive. Many large animals suffer tissue necropsy when they lay for long periods of time when they normally would not (horses for one). A whale that beaches and lays for a period of time would be undergoing a stage of decomposition in some tissues even prior to death.

This is an interesting composition of the exploding whale issue

http://www.theexplodingwhale.com/taxonomy/

Thus, it would seem likely that initially, like a human, a whale would float for a period of time post mortem (based on body size, injury type and water temperature) then the whale would sink for a period of time based on the same variables,) then it would float.

Post by **Minimalist** » Mon Jan 29, 2007 5:26 pm

until about 36-48 hours post mortem

Hence the need for the mafia to design the cement overshoe.

clubs_stink · Post by **clubs_stink** » Mon Jan 29, 2007 5:32 pm

Minimalist wrote:
until about 36-48 hours post mortem

Hence the need for the mafia to design the cement overshoe.

yes, apparently it was too risky to wait for nature to take it's course.

HOWEVER, believe it or not, there are quite heroic mathmatical calculations involved in making certain that the amount of weight you have attached to a body is sufficient enough to KEEP it sunk throughout the decomposition process. It is quite a bit of weight (my memory is foggy) but if I recall right it's something like 200Lbs for a 150 pound body. That's why so many bodies are found

when they were not intended to..that is UNLESS..the body is chock full of holes...that minimizes the amount of weight needed to keep a body submerged. A smart killer knows these little known facts and pokes his victim full of holes when attaching those cement shoes....making certain that the buildup of gasses combined with the cement shoes, will keep a body submerged.

The above mentioned calculations should include water depth and temperature as well! It takes a mathematician to be a good killer...either that, or the unabashed use of holes...lots of holes

Digit · Post by **Digit** » Mon Jan 29, 2007 5:33 pm

No Club, Whales don't use different rules I promise you.

clubs_stink · Post by **clubs_stink** » Mon Jan 29, 2007 5:40 pm

Digit wrote:No Club, Whales don't use different rules I promise you.

(so, it's not just me?

)

I might mention that I am current on a lot of these things due to my current work project...not just a morbid curiousity. It's vital that anything that gets into my work projects is not only accurate but up-to-the minute information. (now, ask me about palmer vein technology replacing fingerprinting for personal ID)

Charlie Hatchett · Post by **Charlie Hatchett** » Mon Jan 29, 2007 6:22 pm

Here's the images page:
http://www.texasbeyondhistory.net/plate ... s/ap5.html

Hey Monk, I just read your post. Things were going so crazy in here yesterday, I flat missed it.

The site discussed in the link you provided, Wilson-Leonard, is ca. 8 miles from here. I've had the luxury of much research published by Mike Collins from U.T., to help me interpret the site, at least down to the gravels. From the gravels down, it's no man's land...nothing published yet. Mike Collin's does have a report of the site in press: "Stratigraphic, Chronometric, and Lithic Technological Evidence for PreClovis at Wilson-Leonard, Texas. Current Research in the Pleistocene". This paper will probably discuss several of the artifacts, including a biface, found in the Pleistocene gravels. You know I'm chomping at the bit to read it.

Charlie Hatchett · Post by **Charlie Hatchett** » Tue Jan 30, 2007 5:26 am

A correction from Chris Hardaker:

Re: A Review of Tony Baker's 2004 Paper
Posted by: Charlie Hatchett (IP Logged)
Date: January 30, 2007 02:12AM

quote (Charlie):

2. Wormington also worked on a site in central Mexico,
Hueyatlaco, where a Sandia type point was found in situ. Again,
geochronology types dated the strata containing the point
(among other tools) at a minimum of 250,000 B.P. Again, the
site was scoffed at, and swept under the rug, until very recently.
USGS, Berkeley, Texas A&M and INAH have reopened investigations at
the site, some 30 years later.

_____________________________________________________________

quote (Chris):

Hi Charlie,
Just discovered this new discussion and haven't read through the entries yet but I ran across something you said that I have to put the kabash on, namely, there were no points like Sandia found at Hueyatlaco or Valsequillo in general. As far as I know they were only found at two sites, one was the Cave and there was an open site. But definitely not at Valsequillo.
ciao

_____________________________________________________________

Hi Chris.

Thanks for the correction.

I may have made a false conclusion, assuming Sandia technology was derived from the technology used to manufacture the dual-pointed bifacial spearpoint found in Bed E at Hueyatlaco.

Have you any rough ideas as to where Sandia technology was derived? It may be impossible to even speculate.

Again, thanks for your input.

Charlie

marduk · Post by **marduk** » Tue Jan 30, 2007 5:43 am

so is this now running on more than one channel
don't tell Beagle which other channel is showing it
he'd cry and claim he knew what was going on