Archaeologica.org

Thank you FM. That's all I wanted.

The sun rises in the east on Dec 25 about four hours after Orion and Sirius slip out of sight. Its little north from where the alignment pointed but its close enough to illustrate the point being made in the movie.



I think the allegory of the three kings (which is invented after christianity) is a stretch. But that's just one man's opinion.

I leave it to the reader to form his/her own.

Ok, Ishtar. Enough for now - if you want to abandon the astro connection, I am willing to continue with the idea that many aspects of the Jesus story as related by common tradition are borrowed from "pagan" ideology. (I think we may be able to at least agree on some things in that discussion.)

Ishtar wrote:Thank you FM. That's all I wanted.

You're welcome. Now I'm going to upload that latest version of that software I used to make the images. I will be busy next week and not have access to the internet as much as I am accustomed. So if I am sparse in my responses, I apologize in advance.

What is your software Monk?
I live in an area with no light pollution and my wife has developed a sudden interest in the night sky. At this time of year Orion is the dominant constellation from my front garden and I've been using it to show her how to locate other stars and promised to try and locate a star map or some software to help her.
Raised in a city, she was staggered as to just how bright the Milky Way could be on a cold clear night and this seems to have sparked her interest.

I have several programs but this one is for "pretty" pictures like I posted. It is an excellent product and priced very competitively...its free.

http://www.stellarium.org/

Click your operating system on the top right (and tell windows not to block downloads)

Thanks FM - those pictures will be really helpful. I won't get time for a couple of days, but when I do, I will present your work to the Zeitgeist people through Acharya, and see what they haive to say about it. Of course, I am extremely unlikely to be able to understand their reply, so I'll be posting that back here for you to get to when you get the time. There's no rush.

In the meantime, it was never my intention to go into the whys and wherefores of whether the Jesus story is an allegory or not as I thought that that idea was pretty well established, enough to my satisfaction and most other peoples, apart from diehard Christian literalists.

I was only presenting evidence to support it here because you were asking for proof. That's why I'm surprised to now hear you say that you supported the idea all along - after you spent most of Saturday posting evidence in an attempt to debunk it. Well, that's how it seemed from this end!

So my purpose with this topic was not to discover whether people believe Jesus's story is an allegory. I'm only interested in why it's an allegory or in other words, if Jesus' life is pure symbolism and nothing more, what do the symbols represent - what is the understory, the sub text. That's why I entitled this topic Is the Jesus Story an Astrological Allegory and not Is the Jesus Story an Allegory.

So what I'd like to do now is to go on with next bit of this astrological puzzle, and I think you'll find it a lot more feasible. It's to do with the changing of the ages every 2150 years because of the precession of the equinoxes (you probably saw it in the film) and how events in the Bible might be symbols for this.

I'll start that in my next post.

As mentioned in the last post, the astrotheists also believe that many Bible stories are in fact allegories for the changing of the ages.

But I won't make the mistake I made last time, and try to explain this myself and then get the whole thing in a muddle.

Here's what is says verbatim from the film script:

Now, of the many astrological-astronomical metaphors in the Bible, one of the most important has to do with the ages.

Throughout the scripture there are numerous references to the "Age." In order to understand this, we need to be familiar with the phenomenon known as the precession of the equinoxes. The ancient Egyptians along with cultures long before them recognized that approximately every 2150 years the sunrise on the morning of the spring equinox would occur at a different sign of the Zodiac.

This has to do with a slow angular wobble that the Earth maintains as it rotates on it's axis.It is called a precession because the constellations go backwards, rather than through the normal yearly cycle. The amount of time that it takes for the precession to go through all 12 signs is roughly 25,765 years. This is also called the "Great Year," and ancient societies were very aware of this. They referred to each 2150 year period as an "age."

From 4300 b.c. to 2150 b.c., it was the Age of Taurus, the Bull. From 2150 b.c. to 1 a.d., it was the Age of Aries, the Ram, and from 1 a.d. to 2150 a.d. it is the Age of Pisces, the age we are still in to this day, and in and around 2150, we will enter the new age: the Age of Aquarius.

Now, the Bible reflects, broadly speaking, a symbolic movement through 3 ages, while foreshadowing a 4th.

In the Old Testament, when Moses comes down Mount Sinai with the 10 Commandments, he is very upset to see his people worshiping a golden bull calf. In fact, he shattered the stone tablets and instructed his people to kill each other in order to purify themselves.

Most Biblical scholars would attribute this anger to the fact that the Israelites were worshiping a false idol, or something to that effect. The reality is that the golden bull is Taurus the Bull, and Moses represents the new Age of Aries the Ram. This is why Jews even today still blow the Ram's horn. Moses represents the new Age of Aries, and upon the new age, everyone must shed the old age. Other deities mark these transitions as well, a pre-Christian god who kills the bull, in the same symbology.

Now Jesus is the figure who ushers in the age following Aries, the Age of Pisces the Two Fish. Fish symbolism is very abundant in the New Testament. Jesus feeds 5000 people with bread and "2 fish." When he begins his ministry walking along Galilee he befriends 2 fisherman, who follow him. And I think we've all seen the Jesus-fish on the backs of people's cars. Little do they know what it actually means. It is a Pagan astrological symbolism for the Sun's Kingdom during the Age of Pisces.Also, Jesus' assumed birth date is essentially the start of this age.

At Luke 22:10 when Jesus is asked by his disciples where the next passover will be, Jesus replied: "Behold, when ye are entered into the city, there shall a man meet you bearing a pitcher of water... follow him into the house where he entereth in." This scripture is by far one of the most revealing of all the astrological references. The man bearing a pitcher of water is Aquarius, the water-bearer, who is always pictured as a man pouring out a pitcher of water. He represents the age after Pisces, and when the Sun (God's Sun) leaves the Age of Pisces (Jesus), it will go into the House of Aquarius, as Aquarius follows Pisces in the precession of the equinoxes. Also Jesus is saying is that after the Age of Pisces will come the Age of Aquarius.

Now, we have all heard about the end times and the end of the world. Apart from the cartoonish depictions in the Book of Revelation, the main source of this idea comes from Matthew 28:20, where Jesus says "I will be with you even to the end of the world."

However, in King James Version, "world" is a mistranslation, among many mistranslations. The actual word being used is "aeon", which means "age." "I will be with you even to the end of the age." Which is true, as Jesus' Solar Piscean personification will end when the Sun enters the Age of Aquarius. The entire concept of end times and the end of the world is a misinterpreted astrological allegory. Let's tell that to the approximately 100 million people in America who believe the end of the world is coming.

Forum Monk wrote:

Minimalist wrote:Capitulation may be the wrong word but it is certainly an acknowledgement that they were trying to defend against the charge that there was nothing new in Christianity. Why would they defend their religion against charges which were not being made? In order to come up with the whole theory of diabolical mimicry they put themselves in the untenable position of saying that "the devil outsmarted god." They must have been very desperate indeed to make such an absurd point. I wouldn't expect a politician to stand up and declare "I am not a child molester" unless someone had, in fact, called him a child molester.

I agree with you on this point Min. I thought Ishtar was claiming that the early christian writers were agreeing that the christian story was a derivitive of the so-called pagan mythologies. She did not say that.

You are right. The people of the age were saying "so what is new?" but I tend agree that RC belief system was more than likely "borrowing" in order to gain wide-spread acceptance, especially by the time of the 4rd century.

Certainly the adoption of the Winter Festival for Christmas is the most obvious example of that borrowing and the 4th century after Nicaea seems to be the correct time for the switch.

That whole thing sort of reminds me of the comment that Napoleon is supposed to have made after his successful coup d'etat in 1815. After the king fled and he occupied Paris he said "when France wakes up tomorrow it must have a government." I have this nagging suspicion that Constantine gave the same sort of directive to the bishops at Nicaea.

Bluntly: "Cut out your bullshit and give me ONE religion for my empire." The obvious veiled threat being, "if you don't, I'll find someone else who will!"

Constantine was not a ninny.

Thanks Monk, that's ideal.

Ishtar wrote:That's why I'm surprised to now hear you say that you supported the idea all along - after you spent most of Saturday posting evidence in an attempt to debunk it. Well, that's how it seemed from this end!

I dunno Ishtar, I tried to stick to the opening premise about the astronomical connection. I had objections because I know enough about mythology and astrology to understand that timing is one of the most important aspects of the theory having validity. I think a lot of the astrological ideas have been retrofitted and altered (or better to say influenced) by the emergence of christianity. A case where the astro-mythology didn't quite fit the story so the astro-mythology was altered in order to say, "it was there all along".

As for the rest of the story. The commonality of mythologies, I will clarify that I think some of the aspects are shared, borrowed, plagerized or stolen but not all. Fundemental and significant differences remain.

Forum Monk wrote: As for the rest of the story. The commonality of mythologies, I will clarify that I think some of the aspects are shared, borrowed, plagerized or stolen but not all. Fundemental and significant differences remain.

For sure. But imho enough of it was borrowed, plagarised or stolen for us to be able trace the Jesus story back into older mythological stories.

So my question has always been 'why'? Why is the same story told over and over again, for thousands of years, all through Mesopotamia and Egypt with many of the same characteristics, notably the dying and resurrecting Godman. Why was this story so popular? And what are the symbols of the allegory obscuring from common view?

That's the hunt I'm on, and have been for many years.

Goodness, Ishtar - do you have a copy of the script? Did you write it?
How tedious to transcribe it.

Let me intersperse my commentary which popped into mind as I wathced the film. Take it for what its worth.

Ishtar wrote:Now, of the many astrological-astronomical metaphors in the Bible, one of the most important has to do with the ages.

Throughout the scripture there are numerous references to the "Age."

In all fairness, one must remember these scriptures were from Jewish people who likely had a different concept of what is an "age". Much was written prior to the Greek conquest of the world when assyrian and babylonian astrology dominated. Precession was unknown to them even if the Vedic astronmers were well aware of it (haven't verified this as yet).

In order to understand this, we need to be familiar with the phenomenon known as the precession of the equinoxes. The ancient Egyptians along with cultures long before them recognized that approximately every 2150 years the sunrise on the morning of the spring equinox would occur at a different sign of the Zodiac.

Unattested but true for the greeks.

This has to do with a slow angular wobble that the Earth maintains as it rotates on it's axis.It is called a precession because the constellations go backwards, rather than through the normal yearly cycle. The amount of time that it takes for the precession to go through all 12 signs is roughly 25,765 years. This is also called the "Great Year," and ancient societies were very aware of this. They referred to each 2150 year period as an "age."

True. The "great year" is a greek designation.

From 4300 b.c. to 2150 b.c., it was the Age of Taurus, the Bull. From 2150 b.c. to 1 a.d., it was the Age of Aries, the Ram, and from 1 a.d. to 2150 a.d. it is the Age of Pisces, the age we are still in to this day, and in and around 2150, we will enter the new age: the Age of Aquarius.

True in astrology.

In the Old Testament, when Moses comes down Mount Sinai with the 10 Commandments, he is very upset to see his people worshiping a golden bull calf. In fact, he shattered the stone tablets and instructed his people to kill each other in order to purify themselves.

Most Biblical scholars would attribute this anger to the fact that the Israelites were worshiping a false idol, or something to that effect. The reality is that the golden bull is Taurus the Bull, and Moses represents the new Age of Aries the Ram. This is why Jews even today still blow the Ram's horn. Moses represents the new Age of Aries, and upon the new age, everyone must shed the old age. Other deities mark these transitions as well, a pre-Christian god who kills the bull, in the same symbology.

None of this has attesting evidence as the earliest hebrew manuscripts predate greek astrology.

Now Jesus is the figure who ushers in the age following Aries, the Age of Pisces the Two Fish. Fish symbolism is very abundant in the New Testament. Jesus feeds 5000 people with bread and "2 fish." When he begins his ministry walking along Galilee he befriends 2 fisherman, who follow him. And I think we've all seen the Jesus-fish on the backs of people's cars. Little do they know what it actually means. It is a Pagan astrological symbolism for the Sun's Kingdom during the Age of Pisces.Also, Jesus' assumed birth date is essentially the start of this age.

Maybe fish symbolism is so prevalent because these people made therir livlihood from the Sea of Galilee.

At Luke 22:10 when Jesus is asked by his disciples where the next passover will be, Jesus replied: "Behold, when ye are entered into the city, there shall a man meet you bearing a pitcher of water... follow him into the house where he entereth in." This scripture is by far one of the most revealing of all the astrological references. The man bearing a pitcher of water is Aquarius, the water-bearer, who is always pictured as a man pouring out a pitcher of water. He represents the age after Pisces, and when the Sun (God's Sun) leaves the Age of Pisces (Jesus), it will go into the House of Aquarius, as Aquarius follows Pisces in the precession of the equinoxes. Also Jesus is saying is that after the Age of Pisces will come the Age of Aquarius.

Now, we have all heard about the end times and the end of the world. Apart from the cartoonish depictions in the Book of Revelation, the main source of this idea comes from Matthew 28:20, where Jesus says "I will be with you even to the end of the world."

Ok, an interpretation consistent with the speculation being presented.

However, in King James Version, "world" is a mistranslation, among many mistranslations. The actual word being used is "aeon", which means "age." "I will be with you even to the end of the age." Which is true, as Jesus' Solar Piscean personification will end when the Sun enters the Age of Aquarius. The entire concept of end times and the end of the world is a misinterpreted astrological allegory. Let's tell that to the approximately 100 million people in America who believe the end of the world is coming.

Well, the aeon part is right.

So as far as New Testement writings and the allegorical expressions they may contain, it is open for interpretation. How can the Zeitgeist people or anyone else "prove" that the writers had all of this astrological symbolism in mind at the time they wrote? Only the gnostics and kabbalists were thinking along those lines as far as I know and we have their writings in the pseudepigraphal collections.

Ishtar wrote:So my question has always been 'why'? Why is the same story told over and over again, for thousands of years, all through Mesopotamia and Egypt with many of the same characteristics, notably the dying and resurrecting Godman. Why was this story so popular? And what are the symbols of the allegory obscuring from common view?

That's the hunt I'm on, and have been for many years.

I know you have said many times, Mithras, Horus, etc were not real. But what if they were? What if the gods were distant memories of actual living human beings from an antiquity when there were fewer humans living closer together? Would that explain anything?

Just food for thought.

OK, two quick points.

Nah....! I have a copy of the script and I'm copying and pasting from it. Here's the link: http://zeitgeistmovie.com/transcript.htm

On your last point, you and I differ as to the dating of the Gnostics. That's because I trace them in a continous line right back into the Greek Pagan Gnostics and Plato et al. Imho, the thinking of the Christian Gnostics is so similar to be almost identical to the Pagan Gnostics, with Sophia etc. The only difference is that the Christian Gnostics' dying and resurrecting Godman is Jesus and the Pagan Gnostics' dying and resurrecting Godman is Dionysus. Otherwise, the philosophy (Love of Sophia) is the same.

Forum Monk wrote:
I know you have said many times, Mithras, Horus, etc were not real. But what if they were? What if the gods were distant memories of actual living human beings from an antiquity when there were fewer humans living closer together? Would that explain anything?

Just food for thought.

This is Marduk's view. It's not mine because I understand about spiritual teachings, the mysteries and shamanism, and enough of how it all works to reach a different conclusion.