pre clovis america
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Minimalist
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A DNA link would go a long way but how can one assure that any hair found has been there for 20,000 years?
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.
-- George Carlin
-- George Carlin
mtDNA Analysis
Barracuda wrote:
http://abc.zoo.ox.ac.uk/Papers/currbiol ... plotype%22
Should the analysis of mtDNA from hair samples at the two different sites come up with the same haplogroup, that would be proof enough. As referenced earlier, that is where Dennis Stanford is headed.Sorry, but I don't think you can ever "prove" anything about the similarities between Solutrean and Clovis points. It is just too subjective.
http://abc.zoo.ox.ac.uk/Papers/currbiol ... plotype%22
Natural selection favors the paranoid
and if you really want to drive yourself nuts, think about the possibility that ur-culture X appeared out of nowhere and spread to europe and america more or less simultaneously. creating what we name solutrean and clovis. or that solutrean started in america, with the somewhat cruder clovis points, and reached its apogee in europe.
problem is, no recorded artifacts of ur-culture.
and by the way rene, i was not speaking of points only. what i was going after was a combination. points+selection of stone+ "art" points+bundles of foreshafts+ red ochre+burial(not for everyday use). this hollers "cultural complex" at me. also, boeing and airbus, from day one, have relied on the systematic transfer and theft of knowledge in symbolic form ("engineering"), rather than face to face, hand to hand transfer of "tribal knowledge". the tribal knowledge does happen on the production floor, but occurs as a reaction to comply with the demands of the symbolic. i.e., conform to the culture of the blueprint. they may both be airplanes, but i can instantly identify an airbus as opposed to a boeing. and the two companies have two distinctly different, well recorded, cultures.
so it would seem to me to be an oversimplification to say that airbus and boeing have identical products, and identical cultures.
i may seem to be contradicting my earlier post, but cultures driven by shared symbolic knowledge are entirely different from cultures driven by face to face generational transfer of individual knowledge.
john
problem is, no recorded artifacts of ur-culture.
and by the way rene, i was not speaking of points only. what i was going after was a combination. points+selection of stone+ "art" points+bundles of foreshafts+ red ochre+burial(not for everyday use). this hollers "cultural complex" at me. also, boeing and airbus, from day one, have relied on the systematic transfer and theft of knowledge in symbolic form ("engineering"), rather than face to face, hand to hand transfer of "tribal knowledge". the tribal knowledge does happen on the production floor, but occurs as a reaction to comply with the demands of the symbolic. i.e., conform to the culture of the blueprint. they may both be airplanes, but i can instantly identify an airbus as opposed to a boeing. and the two companies have two distinctly different, well recorded, cultures.
so it would seem to me to be an oversimplification to say that airbus and boeing have identical products, and identical cultures.
i may seem to be contradicting my earlier post, but cultures driven by shared symbolic knowledge are entirely different from cultures driven by face to face generational transfer of individual knowledge.
john
John, do you think the clovis points are cruder than the solutrean??with the somewhat cruder clovis points
...by the way, I a not very impressed by the claim that the type of flaking of these points is so sophisticated....secret knowledge or whatever...
hitting the blade on one face so that it flakes on the other face
doesn't seem like rocket science.
The deeper you go, the higher you fly.
well, here you have a damned if you do, damned if you dont question. what plagues me is this. are clovis points a slightly cruder precursor to the solutrean - which are flat out art in terms of flint knapping - or are clovis points a cruder, later derivative of the height of the solutrean techne. at this point i plain dont know. and of course this might imply that clovis in america led to solutrean in europe or vice versa. as to your point about sophistication, try building one. the older people's command of various and sundry skills was, without question, far greater than the skill of going to a store and buying something. in my opinion.stan wrote:John, do you think the clovis points are cruder than the solutrean??with the somewhat cruder clovis points
...by the way, I a not very impressed by the claim that the type of flaking of these points is so sophisticated....secret knowledge or whatever...
hitting the blade on one face so that it flakes on the other face
doesn't seem like rocket science.
john
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Minimalist
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try building one
Not a great argument, John. Doubtless there are plenty of people today who could fashion a proper spear point, given the inclination to do so. I've knapped worn flints for my muskets when I've had to in order to get a usable edge. How many of those neolithic flint knappers could go to Comp USA, buy a computer and put it together?
We are the inheritors or a long technological learning curve and the fact that some items have been deemed obsolete does not mean that we lack the ability to go back and recreate them if need be...or even if the mood merely strikes.
Plenty of people dress up in chain mail armor and metal helmets and beat each other over the head with pikes for the 'fun' of it. That means that somewhere in the world, someone is still making chain mail.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.
-- George Carlin
-- George Carlin
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Frank Harrist
stole this from another forum
"The Solutreans were a remarkably society, the most innovative and adaptive of the time. They were among the first to discover the value of heat treating flints to increase strength. Bradley was keen to discover if Solutrean flintknapping styles matched Clovis techniques. A trawl through the unattractive flint offcuts in the storerooms of a French museum convinced him of the similarities, even though five thousand kilometres lay between their territories.
The divide was more than just distance; it crossed five thousand years as well. No matter the similarities between the two cultures, the possibility of a parallel technology developing by chance would have to be considered. More evidence emerged from an archaeological dig in Cactus Hill, Virginia. A bifaced flint point found there was dated to 16kya, far older than Clovis. Even more startling was its style. To flintknapper Bruce Bradley's eye, the Cactus Hill flint was a technological midpoint between the French Solutrean style and the Clovis points dating five millennia later. It seemed there is no great divide in time. The Solutrean flint methods evolved into Clovis.
If time could be discounted, Bradley's critics pointed to an obstacle that was hardly going to go away: crossing the Atlantic Ocean in small open boats. How could Stone Age people have made such an epic journey, especially when the Ice Age maximum would have filled the Atlantic with icebergs.
Dennis Stanford returned to his earlier hunch, looking for clues among the Arctic Eskimo peoples. Despite the influx of modern technologies, he was heartened to discover that traditional techniques endured. Clothing makers in Barrow, Alaska, recognised some Solutrean bone needles he showed them as typical of their own. The caribou skin clothing the Inuit still choose to wear could equally have been made by people in 16,000BC. And for Eskimo peoples the Arctic is not a desert - but a source of plentiful sea food. If the Solutreans had the Clovis point it would have made a formidable harpoon weapon to ensure a food supply. Would modern Eskimo ever consider a five thousand kilometre journey across the Atlantic?
The answer it seems is yes - they have undertaken similar journeys many times.. Most encouraging was the realisation that Inuit people today rely on traditional boat building techniques. 'Unbreakable' plastic breaks in the unceasing cold temperatures whereas boats of wood, sealskin and whale oil are resilient and easily maintained. The same materials would have been available to Solutrean boat builders. Even if the Stone Age Europeans could make those boats, would it survive an Atlantic crossing?
Douglas Wallace, Emory University
Stanford believes the boats' flimsiness is deceptive. With the Atlantic full of ice floes it would be quite possible for paddlers in open boats to travel along the edges, always having a safe place to haul out upon if the weather turned in.
All this evidence was still essentially circumstantial, making the Solutrean adventure possible not proven. Douglas Wallace's DNA history bore fruit once more. In the DNA profile of the Ichigua Native American tribe he identified a lineage that was clearly European in origin, too old to be due to genetic mixing since Columbus' discovery of the New World. Instead it dated to Solutrean times. Wallace's genetic timelines show the Ice Age prompted a number of migrations from Europe to America. It looks highly likely that the Solutreans were one."
The divide was more than just distance; it crossed five thousand years as well. No matter the similarities between the two cultures, the possibility of a parallel technology developing by chance would have to be considered. More evidence emerged from an archaeological dig in Cactus Hill, Virginia. A bifaced flint point found there was dated to 16kya, far older than Clovis. Even more startling was its style. To flintknapper Bruce Bradley's eye, the Cactus Hill flint was a technological midpoint between the French Solutrean style and the Clovis points dating five millennia later. It seemed there is no great divide in time. The Solutrean flint methods evolved into Clovis.
If time could be discounted, Bradley's critics pointed to an obstacle that was hardly going to go away: crossing the Atlantic Ocean in small open boats. How could Stone Age people have made such an epic journey, especially when the Ice Age maximum would have filled the Atlantic with icebergs.
Dennis Stanford returned to his earlier hunch, looking for clues among the Arctic Eskimo peoples. Despite the influx of modern technologies, he was heartened to discover that traditional techniques endured. Clothing makers in Barrow, Alaska, recognised some Solutrean bone needles he showed them as typical of their own. The caribou skin clothing the Inuit still choose to wear could equally have been made by people in 16,000BC. And for Eskimo peoples the Arctic is not a desert - but a source of plentiful sea food. If the Solutreans had the Clovis point it would have made a formidable harpoon weapon to ensure a food supply. Would modern Eskimo ever consider a five thousand kilometre journey across the Atlantic?
The answer it seems is yes - they have undertaken similar journeys many times.. Most encouraging was the realisation that Inuit people today rely on traditional boat building techniques. 'Unbreakable' plastic breaks in the unceasing cold temperatures whereas boats of wood, sealskin and whale oil are resilient and easily maintained. The same materials would have been available to Solutrean boat builders. Even if the Stone Age Europeans could make those boats, would it survive an Atlantic crossing?
Douglas Wallace, Emory University
Stanford believes the boats' flimsiness is deceptive. With the Atlantic full of ice floes it would be quite possible for paddlers in open boats to travel along the edges, always having a safe place to haul out upon if the weather turned in.
All this evidence was still essentially circumstantial, making the Solutrean adventure possible not proven. Douglas Wallace's DNA history bore fruit once more. In the DNA profile of the Ichigua Native American tribe he identified a lineage that was clearly European in origin, too old to be due to genetic mixing since Columbus' discovery of the New World. Instead it dated to Solutrean times. Wallace's genetic timelines show the Ice Age prompted a number of migrations from Europe to America. It looks highly likely that the Solutreans were one."
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marduk
why does everyone insist that anyone in western europe would cross the atlantic to get to america
5000 years is plenty of time to walk the easy route the other way than attempt to cross an ocean in an ice age
and the indians themselves all say they came from the sea to the west
theres not one tribe that claims to have come from the east.
not one
5000 years is plenty of time to walk the easy route the other way than attempt to cross an ocean in an ice age
and the indians themselves all say they came from the sea to the west
theres not one tribe that claims to have come from the east.
not one
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Frank Harrist
Clovis v solutrean
This is a pretty good link bescribing Bradley and Stanford's theory. The DNA evidence of haplogroup X could possibly back up their theory.
http://users.on.net/~mkfenn/page9.htm
http://users.on.net/~mkfenn/page9.htm
