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Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 9:43 pm
by AD
(From War Arrow) It strikes me that all it might take is for one site (or even object) to be taken seriously, to be proven valid in such a way that not even the most hardened club naysayer can deny...
I think it's generally been the case that the reality of a paradigm breaker becomes widely recognized only gradually, as a few of the entrenched "experts" slowly start to see for themselves what is there, the others pass from the scene, and newcomers take a fresh look, saying "There might be something to this". Then eventually the public as a whole catches on, or at least the few that care or are paying attention. "Eureka moments" within an entire established discipline seem to be uncommon.

Alan
http://www.daysknob.com

Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 10:48 pm
by Minimalist
as a few of the entrenched "experts" slowly start to see

Or the senior Club members die off and open the way for some new ideas.

Science advancing from funeral to funeral, as someone said.

Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 5:23 am
by DougWeller
AD wrote:Hi Frank and Charlie...

What sends me into orbit is something I see over and over again - the pros do not like amateurs venturing into their domain, particularly when these seem to be onto something they would much prefer to be their own discovery, and the first thing the pros do is throw out something patently bogus in an attempt to short-circuit the amateur's efforts (e.g., limestone couldn't possibly survive, etc.). And it's not a uniquely American phenomenon by any means. Richard (a.k.a. Manystones) was just recently treated to this wretched display by a prominent British archaeologist who told him his material could not possibly be artificial because the origin of the rock of which it is composed predates the arrival of humans. (So much, then, for all our nice flint triangles we have been assuming to be arrowheads, etc.)


Regards, Alan
Alan, are you sure you have that right? Most rock tools are made out of rock that existed in Britain before there were humans.

And in the UK the amateur archaeologist holds a very respected place, with some fairly major digs run entirely by amateurs.

Doug

Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 5:40 am
by Charlie Hatchett
That certainly is the case here in Ohio, and here they also have a severe lack of manpower and money, even for the popularly recognized "Indian" stuff -
That seems to be the biggest problem here in Texas: Lack of funding. Gault's even at a standstill as we speak...sad. Somehow the general public has to be incorporated into the archeology field...to generate interest. If the general public has no interest, then the funding is always going to be a problem. More researchers need to be sharing and promoting their finds in a more generalized fashion. Al Goodyear has done a fairly good job of promoting his site to the general public.

Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 6:00 am
by Charlie Hatchett
...so I plan to go down there and do that too. I'll need at least a week to do all this so maybe when I get a vacation, in about a year, I'll spend it in Austin with Charlie and Dr. Collins...
Doors wide open, and I've got you covered on room and board, Bro. I understand you just got a new job, so you can't take off right away.

I do appreciate all your efforts concerning this local site. You at least made the main players, here locally, aware of the site and artifacts. Due to your efforts, I'm now hooked up with the USGS (Malde, Bischoff, Steen-McIntyre), via your friend, David Campbell. USGS has performed several very high dollar U/Th analyses, with their own funding. David Campbell also hooked me up with Bob Wishoff, a steward for Travis County. He has a great working relationship with TARL, and has generated interest from U.T.'s Vertabrate Paleontology Lab...they think that one of the fossils discovered here is a Dino.

Anyway, just wanted to let you know I haven't forgotten your efforts. 8)

Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 7:10 am
by Manystones
DougWeller wrote:
AD wrote:Hi Frank and Charlie...

What sends me into orbit is something I see over and over again - the pros do not like amateurs venturing into their domain, particularly when these seem to be onto something they would much prefer to be their own discovery, and the first thing the pros do is throw out something patently bogus in an attempt to short-circuit the amateur's efforts (e.g., limestone couldn't possibly survive, etc.). And it's not a uniquely American phenomenon by any means. Richard (a.k.a. Manystones) was just recently treated to this wretched display by a prominent British archaeologist who told him his material could not possibly be artificial because the origin of the rock of which it is composed predates the arrival of humans. (So much, then, for all our nice flint triangles we have been assuming to be arrowheads, etc.)


Regards, Alan
Alan, are you sure you have that right? Most rock tools are made out of rock that existed in Britain before there were humans.

And in the UK the amateur archaeologist holds a very respected place, with some fairly major digs run entirely by amateurs.

Doug
Alan is referring to a response provided by a supposed expert in Palaeolithic art.
Dr Pettitt wrote:There is a simple way that these can be demonstrated to be natural - they commonly occur in gravel deposits - often in the high frequencies that you found in your garden - which date to the Miocene and earlier, i.e. prior to the evoluion of humans.
:lol: ROTFLMAO :lol:

It never ceases to amaze me the lengths "club" members will go to trying to disprove the overwhelming evidence that human and animals images were produced throughout history from early Pliocene times. (Clearly in this case not the soundest argument ever invented.)

And let us not forget Doug how disillusioned the original excavators of Pakefield felt once it was taken over and little if any credit was given.. (as if this was an isolated case!)

And then there was the case of Ron Williams.. his collection provided to the museum later dumped in a wood.

My "friendly" contact at the British Museum will not - after having made some quite remarkable claims - even respond to considered discussion. That is how little respect I am afforded.

Keep trying Doug, my experience still leaves me doubting their sincerity.

Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 11:02 am
by Charlie Hatchett
There is a simple way that these can be demonstrated to be natural - they commonly occur in gravel deposits - often in the high frequencies that you found in your garden - which date to the Miocene and earlier, i.e. prior to the evolution of humans.
Here we go 'round in circles...lmao!! :P

These guys are laughable at times.

Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 1:17 am
by AD
Hi Doug...
Alan, are you sure you have that right? Most rock tools are made out of rock that existed in Britain before there were humans.
As Richard quoted, even giving this fellow's name (which I was reluctant to do), he did in fact say that the fact of a rock's deposition predating human presence precludes the possibility of human modification. And not just once but twice, when I questioned this - and he then pretty much told me I would have to be stupid not to hear the wisdom in what he was saying. He did not respond to my rebuttal.
And in the UK the amateur archaeologist holds a very respected place, with some fairly major digs run entirely by amateurs.
You're right of course, and to deny this long standing and admirable cooperation would be erroneous and most unfair. And it's great that this symbiotic relationship exists, considering that in many areas of the UK one can hardly poke a hole in the ground without encountering something left behind by people of the distant past - and I don't mean just the controversial material we've been talking about here.

The problem arises, understandably, when someone like Richard, his friend David King, and long-time investigator Simon Parkes propose that stones bearing simple although often not immediately recognizable imagery represent an unrecognized human presence and capacity for symbolic expression. It's just part of the human condition that, for the most part, we see only what we already know, and that the fact that we have been unaware of something else is the only proof we need that it does not exist. But with the efficient exchange of information enabled by the internet, some of us are identifying the similarities in what we are seeing, right down to the consistent and repeated arrangement of subcomponents. It's a reality that must and certainly will be dealt with eventually. Human agency in the material has, in some instances, already been professionally identified in Germany, and also over here, in the case of my own finds, although here in the face of some ferocious kicking and screaming. Since the UK is presumably part of the same planet, I would expect the artificiality of the material there to be recognized eventually. And there is nothing counterintuitive, metaphysical, or supernatural in any of this - just physical evidence of a lot of very early humans across the planet sharing a primal animistic/shamanistic perception of their place in the world.

With other commitments, I have not yet had time to continue addressing your quite pertinent question of how to get beyond subjectivity in the interpretation of the material being presented. Of course this must be in the context of the "scientific method" (provable/falsifiable hypotheses, etc.), and I have been thinking about this, trying to cope with my obvious inadequacy as a wordsmith. In the interim, take a look at http://www.daysknob.com/Inuit.htm which I have belatedly updated to show some of the imagery from the Day's Knob site (Ohio) in direct comparison with recent Inuit/Yupik "transition" art, which derives from a culture of quite ancient origin and duration, and displays an iconography with components long recognized in the imagery of aboriginal inhabitants of the western hemisphere, and also visible in the ancient "art" of the "old world" if one takes the time to look.

Regards, Alan

Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 9:11 am
by War Arrow
Image
That particular one I found very convincing, AD. Do you have any images of it taken from other angles (and apologies if they've already appeared and I missed them)?

Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 4:11 pm
by Charlie Hatchett

Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 4:13 pm
by Charlie Hatchett
Image

Yup...that one's a no brainer.

Allan, I'm still pondering on way to make this art stuff more emperical. It's not an easy task, to say the least. :?

Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 10:09 pm
by AD
Hi War Arrow and Charlie...
(From War Arrow) That particular one I found very convincing, AD. Do you have any images of it taken from other angles...?
Yes, it's a nice one, more finely detailed than most of this type. It also exhibits bilateral symmetry, both sides displaying the same theme, the symmetry in itself being a pretty good indicator of human agency. And it's been recognized by a pro as being of human manufacture, microscopic examination of the eye being the deciding factor here. (In general, eyes received more attention from the artisans than the other features in these figures.) This guy has his own web page on my site, http://www.daysknob.com/BS016A.htm showing several different views.

Charlie, that metal piece looks a lot like those Dave Gillilan and Mike Ellis have found - "replicability" is good! The typical abstract but identifiable bird form is there, and also what one might well see as a certain human appendage, which appears clearly in one limestone from my site (but let's not go down that road right now...). So far, no metal at my site. Take care of that possible furnace! That's the only one quite like it that I know of, and it's great evidence. I hesitate to advise you on how to protect it from the elements. One thing that comes to mind is packing it in clean sand, although it would be a hassle removing this for inspection. And if the sand becomes permeated by water, this might be bad for material on the furnace's surface. So, you better ask someone that actually knows about preservation. I have the same problem with some larger in-the-ground artifacts here - quite worrisome.
(From Charlie) Alan, I'm still pondering on way to make this art stuff more emperical. It's not an easy task, to say the least.
Yeah. For now I'm just taking it one step at a time, building the case with assessments by actual physical scientists, as well as with documentation of other finds (like yours) similar down to the finer details - some by people that came upon them even before seeing my material on the website. Eventually, I hope to feel confident about making a high profile presentation that will compel the establishment to, if it can, debate in a public forum with something more meaningful than the usual "I don't see what you are seeing. I do not believe it. Indians would not have done that. You're crazy. You have no arrowheads. Go away". But as I said in an earlier posting, recognition of such things seldom comes all at once. Frankly, I'd be quite pleasantly surprised if all this were to be widely accepted within my lifetime. As strongly as I feel about the importance of bringing this archaeological/anthropological phenomenon to public awareness, it's a good thing I have other meaningful and fun things in my life.

Alan
http://www.daysknob.com

Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 5:35 pm
by Manystones
AD wrote:
And in the UK the amateur archaeologist holds a very respected place, with some fairly major digs run entirely by amateurs.
You're right of course, and to deny this long standing and admirable cooperation would be erroneous and most unfair. And it's great that this symbiotic relationship exists
Possibly this is a matter of perception in addition to degrees Alan. My understanding is that the two people involved originally with Pakefield won't even talk about the experience any longer, a far cry from a symbiosis.

I have a feeling this kind of image is left over from "the good old days" where amateurs would be allowed to get involved, etc. Again somewhat removed from the current situation apparently driven by and large by commercial developments and/or private money. Publicly funded research appears to be minimal.

Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 10:25 pm
by AD
Hi Richard...
My understanding is that the two people involved originally with Pakefield won't even talk about the experience any longer...
Interesting... So what's the story here? Did Paul Durbidge and Bob Mutch not get the credit they were due? In the publicity I've seen, they are at least credited with the original discovery. Aside from all that, there obviously remains the ongoing problem of getting the pros to take an objective look at anything seemingly outside the convenient and comfortable reality(?) construct, despite compelling circumstantial evidence.

Alan

Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 10:37 pm
by Charlie Hatchett
Take care of that possible furnace! That's the only one quite like it that I know of, and it's great evidence. I hesitate to advise you on how to protect it from the elements. One thing that comes to mind is packing it in clean sand, although it would be a hassle removing this for inspection. And if the sand becomes permeated by water, this might be bad for material on the furnace's surface. So, you better ask someone that actually knows about preservation. I have the same problem with some larger in-the-ground artifacts here - quite worrisome.
Hey Alan.

Yes sir. I'm doing everything I can...while internally cussing every state sponsored archeology department. These sum bi**hes have done absolutely nothing. Texas Historical Commission sent out a steward, who was absolute fascinated with the structures, and even admitted to seeing the very detailed motiff, in the mold. She submitted it to her archeologist boss at THC, who interpreted the structures to be seep wells...hacked into the limestone, to gather water during dry spells, by late 1800ish settlers. You'd figure if your gonna hack some holes 20' under the ground surface, you'd make them bigger than .75 gallon... :roll: And so squared off. And what about all that iron filling the crevaces at the bottom of the furnace? Most ridiculous garbage I've ever heard. The archeologist never even bothered to visit the site. I didn't even attempt to explain my case to him. I figured with his mentality, he could only do more harm than good. I'll wait for Kissin to come in the Spring.