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stan · Post by **stan** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 6:04 pm

Those are good, Charlie.
Your "in situ" pictures of the first specimen show better than any before how your finds are distinguished from the surrounding ordinary water-worn rocks.

Charlie Hatchett · Post by **Charlie Hatchett** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 4:44 am

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Beagle · Post by **Beagle** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 9:11 am

http://physorg.com/news91377896.html

Because of technological advances, Waters says that he and Stafford were able to more precisely pinpoint the dates for some of the more than 25 dated Clovis sites that were excavated in North America.

"Many of these radiocarbon dates were run back in the 1960s and 1970s when radiocarbon technology wasn’t what it is today," says Waters. "Many of the dates obtained from these sites had ranges on them of plus or minus 250 years. We can now get to plus or minus 30 years."

What Waters and Stafford found when they did their testing were radiocarbon dates that showed the Clovis time range wasn’t as long as had been previously thought. Their tests placed the Clovis time frame between 11,050 radiocarbon years before present to approximately 10,800 radiocarbon years before present.

A new study by Waters.
From the Daily Grail

Charlie Hatchett · Post by **Charlie Hatchett** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 10:19 am

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Post by **Minimalist** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 11:52 am

Guys (and ladies) last night I recorded (at 3 in the goddamn morning) a NOVA special on America's Stone Age Explorers. It's fascinating ( to all except die-hard Club members).

Later today I'll encode it for e-mail. If anyone wants to see it you'll need to PM an e-mail address.

I use a program called Pando to send large e-mail attachments and Beags and Starflower (and Arch) can attest that it works.

It discusses the Clovis theory, the subsequent demolishing of the theory and the predictable reaction of the Club to its demise. Anyway, there is a great discussion of Solutrean flint-knapping.

Charlie Hatchett · Post by **Charlie Hatchett** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 12:36 pm

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Post by **Minimalist** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 12:37 pm

I figured you were a cinch....but I already have your e-mail address.

Post by **Minimalist** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 12:42 pm

BTW, your pal, Collins is prominently featured.

Charlie Hatchett · Post by **Charlie Hatchett** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 1:14 pm

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Cognito · Post by **Cognito** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 1:39 pm

BTW, your pal, Collins is prominently featured.

With Collins actively putting the stake into the heart of Clovis and Goodyear talking 50,000 years bp, the field of North and South American archaeology should take on more sanity.

Charlie Hatchett · Post by **Charlie Hatchett** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 2:12 pm

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Post by **Minimalist** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 2:49 pm

"This will force us to develop a new model to explain the peopling of the Americas."

Down with the Club!

Post by **Minimalist** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:53 pm

NOVA is on its way. A 435 meg file but its transmitting at a pretty good clip so far.

If you use McAfee's A-V software there may be a problem with getting pando to work. I have a workaround if needed.

Beagle · Post by **Beagle** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 4:49 pm

NOVA is on its way.

Thanks Min, I just saw it. I've seen it before and it's the one I posted about in "On the tube" a few days ago. Damn good show.

Thanks for getting it out to anyone interested.

Beagle · Post by **Beagle** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 5:10 pm

Charlie Hatchett wrote:
http://physorg.com/news91377896.html

Quote:
Because of technological advances, Waters says that he and Stafford were able to more precisely pinpoint the dates for some of the more than 25 dated Clovis sites that were excavated in North America.

"Many of these radiocarbon dates were run back in the 1960s and 1970s when radiocarbon technology wasn’t what it is today," says Waters. "Many of the dates obtained from these sites had ranges on them of plus or minus 250 years. We can now get to plus or minus 30 years."

What Waters and Stafford found when they did their testing were radiocarbon dates that showed the Clovis time range wasn’t as long as had been previously thought. Their tests placed the Clovis time frame between 11,050 radiocarbon years before present to approximately 10,800 radiocarbon years before present.

A new study by Waters.
From the Daily Grail
What's amazing about this Beag is, according to this latest research, we have to account for the expansion of Clovis technology to all 48 contiguous states down to parts of Central America...in a mere 300-400 years.

Well the realization that Clovis was not first is hardly earth shattering but this redating even further compresses the date range of Clovis sites to a mere 300 to 400 years. Previously it had been on the order of 800 to 900 years. This raises some profound questions: Was Clovis the result of a tremendous influx of immegrants or a population explosion of a group that was already in the Americas or was Clovis technology completely independent of genetics and represents a technology transfer between dissimilar groups of hunters?

An even more interesting question is what happened to Clovis? After exploding across all of North America in a mere 400 years, then it completely disappeared. We can see some of the knapping techniques carried over into Folsom (with some time gap), but why did everyone stop making Clovis points? Sure the mammoths were gone but a point that served to dispatch mammoths would work very effectively on bison so why the sudden change?

http://physorg.com/news91377896.html

I know we've chatted before about what may have caused the rapid ending to Clovis technology:

Supernova Explosion May Have Caused Mammoth Extinction
Contact: Dan Krotz, 510-486-4019, dakrotz@lbl.gov

BERKELEY, CA – A distant supernova that exploded 41,000 years ago may have led to the extinction of the mammoth, according to research conducted by nuclear scientist Richard Firestone of the U.S. Department of Energy’s Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory (Berkeley Lab).

Firestone, who collaborated with Arizona geologist Allen West on this study, unveiled this theory Sept. 24 at the 2nd International Conference "The World of Elephants" in Hot Springs, SD. Their theory joins the list of possible culprits responsible for the demise of mammoths, which last roamed North America roughly 13,000 years ago. Scientists have long eyed climate change, disease, or intensive hunting by humans as likely suspects.

http://www.lbl.gov/Science-Articles/Arc ... ction.html
Black Mat at the Murray Springs site, Arizona; the Black Mat covers the Clovis occupation surface:

http://www.centerfirstamericans.com/pho ... /e%7E6.jpg

Charlie, I think Waters very aptly points out that 400 years is implausable as a time frame for the expansion of Clovis people. Technology, on the other hand, can move much faster , as has been demonstrated throughout history.

But that means, IMO, that other people have to be present to recieve that technology.

Regarding the Mammoth extinction, I've never felt that humans were responsible for that. There were dramatic climate changes at that time - two of them actually - that resulted in the extinction of all North American megafauna. Except for the buffalo. It would be interesting to see if the buffalo has had a genetic bottleneck at that time. I don't know of any studies, but I haven't searched.

The supernova explosion is something that I'm unfamiliar with, so I can't comment but it sounds very interesting.