Early Migration
Moderators: MichelleH, Minimalist, JPeters
Yep Beag, we are truly a bastard nation. As a third generation migrant I have the greatest respect for the Welsh, Irish, and Scots, for they have stubbornly, and successfully, resisted all attempts at turning them into little Englishmen.
The Gaelic, like Cymraeg, Cornish, and Irish has significant differences because the people were not literate and none of them had a written language. All of them are written using the Latin alphabet.
Their language, customs, history, all were kept in existance verbally despite all attempts by successive English governments to eradicate them. But with distance between them differences had to arise, the same happened in England. For example, we spell PLOUGH for your PLOW, the reason was that Caxton spoke a different dialect to the one he wrote, and PLOUGH was indeed pronounced PLOG in certain areas.
The BBC, when it started broadcasting, hired people to to produce a standard form of English, but differences still exist despite their best efforts.
As a child, I moved to the county of Berkshire, pronounced BARKSHIRE, and I couldn't understand a single word the older generation spoke.
The differences are still legion, I'm glad to say.
Cymraeg, Welsh, is spoken where I live every day and has nothing in common with standard English at all, it is more Germanic than English and the grammar is also Germanic.
The Gaelic, like Cymraeg, Cornish, and Irish has significant differences because the people were not literate and none of them had a written language. All of them are written using the Latin alphabet.
Their language, customs, history, all were kept in existance verbally despite all attempts by successive English governments to eradicate them. But with distance between them differences had to arise, the same happened in England. For example, we spell PLOUGH for your PLOW, the reason was that Caxton spoke a different dialect to the one he wrote, and PLOUGH was indeed pronounced PLOG in certain areas.
The BBC, when it started broadcasting, hired people to to produce a standard form of English, but differences still exist despite their best efforts.
As a child, I moved to the county of Berkshire, pronounced BARKSHIRE, and I couldn't understand a single word the older generation spoke.
The differences are still legion, I'm glad to say.
Cymraeg, Welsh, is spoken where I live every day and has nothing in common with standard English at all, it is more Germanic than English and the grammar is also Germanic.
Neither Beag! The Welsh just don't use the letter. What happened was that Wales was, and still is, a predominantly agrarian society, and the money for industry, mining, etc came from England and attracted Welsh people to the towns. The English people, like me, have a lot of trouble with the language and many Welsh names became corrupted as we mangled our way through Welsh pronounciations.
If you write e.g. 'Jon's house', the ' indicates the missing 'e', but 150 years ago they normally included the 'e' and thus the above becomes 'Jones house'.
The Welsh for Jon or John is Ieaun.
Modern Welsh is spoken where I live on a daily basis, if you phone a government dept you will be greeted with, 'Bore dda, good morning,'and left to reply in which language you choose.
Modern Welsh is sometimes referred to as 'Wenglish' as many English words have been adopted, just as they adopted Latin and Norman French, but always with a unique spelling. Garige, tacsi, fflan, ffrige, etc.
F is pronounced as V, FF as F, C as K, LL as in Loch DD as TH, and the grammar is 'backwards', as in Bore dda, dda means good and Bore is morning. Nos dda is good night.
Things are not made any easier for incomers like myself as much of the spelling has not been standardised and you get place names spelt differently at each end of the village on occasion!
New mailmen round here commit suicide!
If you write e.g. 'Jon's house', the ' indicates the missing 'e', but 150 years ago they normally included the 'e' and thus the above becomes 'Jones house'.
The Welsh for Jon or John is Ieaun.
Modern Welsh is spoken where I live on a daily basis, if you phone a government dept you will be greeted with, 'Bore dda, good morning,'and left to reply in which language you choose.
Modern Welsh is sometimes referred to as 'Wenglish' as many English words have been adopted, just as they adopted Latin and Norman French, but always with a unique spelling. Garige, tacsi, fflan, ffrige, etc.
F is pronounced as V, FF as F, C as K, LL as in Loch DD as TH, and the grammar is 'backwards', as in Bore dda, dda means good and Bore is morning. Nos dda is good night.
Things are not made any easier for incomers like myself as much of the spelling has not been standardised and you get place names spelt differently at each end of the village on occasion!
New mailmen round here commit suicide!
In part Beag it was Romanised. The capital of Wales is Cardiff, in Welsh it's Caerdydd, the Caer is Latin for fort. The Welsh name for Wales is Cymru, in some spellings, and pronounced Cumry and means 'Comrade'.
The Romans didn't make much headway in this area but the Norman French cut the country into two halves, reaching the coast in my back yard, where the Welsh gave them a hell of beating and forced them to retreat to the nearby town of Cardigan. Such was the slaughter and panic that the bridge over the river collapsed under the weight of the fleeing Normans and the survivors crossed on the bodies of the drowned. The Normans managed to hold the castle but not the town, which remained in Welsh hands for many years.
Welsh was a dying language but is now taught in schools and everything in this area is bi-lingual, which causes tourists to go grey. My nearest town is Cardigan, in English, Aberteifi in Welsh, and the sign posts give both, but English maps only give Cardigan.
Welsh place name are geographical locations, Aberteifi means 'Mouth of the Teifi', the local river, but Cardigan is an English corruption of a Norman French corruption of the Welsh. Originally Ceridigian, 'Land of Ceri', the Normans mangled that to Kerdigan and the later English to Cardigan.
Due to the Norman invasion Wales began to speak two dialects, one to north of Cardigan and the other to the south. Here they overlap, and you get even more confusions. Eglys and Llan both mean church, Llan to south and Eglys to the north, or within a hundred yards of each other where I live!
The Welsh for window is Ffenestra, pure French.
The Romans didn't make much headway in this area but the Norman French cut the country into two halves, reaching the coast in my back yard, where the Welsh gave them a hell of beating and forced them to retreat to the nearby town of Cardigan. Such was the slaughter and panic that the bridge over the river collapsed under the weight of the fleeing Normans and the survivors crossed on the bodies of the drowned. The Normans managed to hold the castle but not the town, which remained in Welsh hands for many years.
Welsh was a dying language but is now taught in schools and everything in this area is bi-lingual, which causes tourists to go grey. My nearest town is Cardigan, in English, Aberteifi in Welsh, and the sign posts give both, but English maps only give Cardigan.
Welsh place name are geographical locations, Aberteifi means 'Mouth of the Teifi', the local river, but Cardigan is an English corruption of a Norman French corruption of the Welsh. Originally Ceridigian, 'Land of Ceri', the Normans mangled that to Kerdigan and the later English to Cardigan.
Due to the Norman invasion Wales began to speak two dialects, one to north of Cardigan and the other to the south. Here they overlap, and you get even more confusions. Eglys and Llan both mean church, Llan to south and Eglys to the north, or within a hundred yards of each other where I live!
The Welsh for window is Ffenestra, pure French.
That's a lot of rich history there Digit. Wales is one of those smaller sections of the UK that I know little about, except that Celtic dialect is still spoken there.
We have every sort of language incorporated into our daily lives in the US. Aside from English we have German, French, Spanish, and Native American words that we use every day. For instance, every state in the Union has at least one town or county named LaFayette, named after the French General who fought in our Revolutionary War. Those kinds of words are a normal part of our everyday language.
History is great. I would love to see Wales one day, and my wife would like to see Sean Connery.
We have every sort of language incorporated into our daily lives in the US. Aside from English we have German, French, Spanish, and Native American words that we use every day. For instance, every state in the Union has at least one town or county named LaFayette, named after the French General who fought in our Revolutionary War. Those kinds of words are a normal part of our everyday language.
History is great. I would love to see Wales one day, and my wife would like to see Sean Connery.
English apparently has three times more words than its nearest competitor, though a report this week suggestes that modern teenagers get by with about a dozen.
Engish English, uses words from French, German, Italian, Norse, Spanish, Arfikaans, Malay, Punjabi, Hindi, Aborigini, Malay, Arabic and of course Saxon, that I know of. Much was adopted from soldiers during the days of empire.
The Welsh for the Saxon invaders was Saesneg, which is modern Welsh for the English and is the root of a word I'm sure you are familiar with. Sassenach!
Engish English, uses words from French, German, Italian, Norse, Spanish, Arfikaans, Malay, Punjabi, Hindi, Aborigini, Malay, Arabic and of course Saxon, that I know of. Much was adopted from soldiers during the days of empire.
The Welsh for the Saxon invaders was Saesneg, which is modern Welsh for the English and is the root of a word I'm sure you are familiar with. Sassenach!
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Minimalist
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a report this week suggestes that modern teenagers get by with about a dozen.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.
-- George Carlin
-- George Carlin
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marduk
Much of Wales is mountainous and the local joke is that it would be larger than England if it was rolled flat. Our climate varies from very mild, (and wet), to arctic conditions. Some flora here is found only on high peaks and north of the arctic circle, but as I live on the coast my part is the mildest in Britain, but might windy on occasion.
I visited Carnaervon once long ago. By the docks children were playing,
using both languages, I asked them what they were doing, and they said they were sailing to Canada.
The thing I enjoyed most about England was that I felt I was in
"a foreign country" in which I could speak the language!
I tried to talk with as many people as possible, and found them mostly
very hospitable.
using both languages, I asked them what they were doing, and they said they were sailing to Canada.
The thing I enjoyed most about England was that I felt I was in
"a foreign country" in which I could speak the language!
I tried to talk with as many people as possible, and found them mostly
very hospitable.
The deeper you go, the higher you fly.
I once had a neighbour who had run a station in Africa and she never adapted, ordering the natives around like they were servants, she had a miserable time here. My family were welcomed, watched, and accepted. Too often English people move here away from cities then start complaining about smell from farms, or mud on the road, or that tractors move too slowly, and they breed resentment. Fit in and the Welsh will make you welcome, don't and you will be lonely.