Ancient Agriculture

The Western Hemisphere. General term for the Americas following their discovery by Europeans, thus setting them in contradistinction to the Old World of Africa, Europe, and Asia.

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Beagle
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Post by Beagle »

Digit wrote:Long time for me as well Beag, but didn't he suggest that cotton in SA was a triploid and that had only been found in the middle east and Asia? Remember the Corn carvings in India? Trade, how ever old, goes both ways of course.
Yes, I'm vaguely aware of that. I think that eventually the archaeobotanists will help us have a much greater insight into our early history.

I've often thought that agriculture of some kind existed in the Pleistocene, but after an event like the Holocene extinction, those plants would have quickly reverted to their wild form - in just decades. So we have no record of them - yet.
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Post by Beagle »

Charlie Hatchett wrote:Looks like I accidently duplicated your post, Beags. :oops:
I'll let that thread die and move the posts over here.
I do it all the time Charlie. :lol: It doesn't matter a bit where we talk about it.
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Post by Minimalist »

Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

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Digit
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Post by Digit »

Personally I would like to see more effort going in to why people turned to farming. It's damned hard work for a start.
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Post by Minimalist »

In, The Bible Unearthed, Finkelstein suggests a mechanism for the change from pastoralism to farming. He portrays it as a long-term process in which some members of the tribe begin farming while others continue to herd the sheep/goats. Gradually the emphasis shifts from herding to farming.

So.....what are the odds that as hunter/gatherer groups started to settle down that it was the women who began to tend the crops while the men continued with the hunting?
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

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Digit
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Post by Digit »

I think it must have been gradual for a number of reasons. First you need to build up experience, not only of the cultural practices but of storage and preservation and the learning curve must have had a lot of mistakes in it.
Second, any form of farming involves a major risk of crop failures.
Stock keeping may have been a viable route into agriculture in the ME but here in northern Europe you cannot over winter stock without you grow winter feed, which seems to be the reverse of the ME.
Osteoarchaelogists tell us that the change over resulted in a reduction in life expectantcy, and a rise in disease and nutritional related defects, including a loss of average height.
So why did they bother?
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Post by Minimalist »

I don't know. It can't be something that was dictated by necessity. If all the animals died as a result of climate change the humans would have died of starvation before the crops ripened.

So.....that leads to choice. Perhaps they acquired a taste for certain fruits, vegetables or grain and looked for ways to maximize those resources?
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

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Digit
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Post by Digit »

I think you might just be right there Min. Most of the other ideas can be shot down quite easily, hadn't thought of that one though.
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Post by Minimalist »

I'd be interested to hear some speculation from the rest of the gang.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

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Charlie Hatchett
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Post by Charlie Hatchett »

Minimalist wrote:Hancock reported that Wendorf and Schild found evidence of stone farming implements in the 11th millenia BC or so in the Nile Valley.



http://www.antiquityofman.com/EgyptianPredynastic.html
Evidence of grinding stones at Late Paleolithic sites in Upper Egypt and Lower Nubia dating to the end of the Pleistocene (see Wendorf and Schild 1976, 1989: 792-793; Wendorf, Said, and Schild 1970) may be related to early experiments that might have led to farming.
WTH knows.
Sounds plausible, assuming good soil and water nearby/ consistent moisture. If the people in the area took a liking to a particular gathered food, it wouldn’t be too hard to figure out how to grow more. I'll have to read the ref. Thanks, Bro.
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Post by War Arrow »

Digit wrote:Personally I would like to see more effort going in to why people turned to farming. It's damned hard work for a start.
There's a pretty staggering book by Susan Blackmore called The Meme Machine discussing the idea of memes as evolving and self replicating units of culture - in other words ideas which catch on. The basic thesis of her book seems to be that (as is the case with a gene) a meme's sole interest is its own perpetuation irrespective of the consequences for its human host, hence the popularity of occasionally self-destructive ideas. Farming is basically a meme that caught on and forced those who didn't take to it into a "keeping up with the Joneses" position - hence its popularity (almost, I guess, as a means of placing oneself at the top of a heirarchy) despite the fact that "farming did not make life easier, nor did it improve nutrition, or reduce disease." (page 26/7 in my paperback copy - Oxford University Press)
Well worth reading and certainly it seems to explain most of humanity's more stupid-yet-popular ideas.
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Post by Beagle »

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/ ... 082007.php
A University of Colorado at Boulder team excavating an ancient Maya village in El Salvador buried by a volcanic eruption 1,400 years ago has discovered an ancient field of manioc, the first evidence for cultivation of the calorie-rich tuber in the New World.

The manioc field was discovered under roughly 10 feet of ash, said CU-Boulder anthropology Professor Payson Sheets, who has been directing the excavation of the ancient village of Ceren since its discovery in 1978. Considered the best-preserved ancient village in Latin America, Ceren's buildings, artifacts and landscape were frozen in time by the sudden eruption of the nearby Loma Caldera volcano about 600 A.D., providing a unique window on the everyday lives of prehistoric Mayan farmers.

The discovery marks the first time manioc cultivation has been discovered at an archaeological site anywhere in the Americas, said Sheets. The National Geographic Society funded the 2007 CU-Boulder research effort at Ceren, the most recent of five research grants made by NGS to the ongoing excavations by Sheets and his students.
600 AD isn't really "ancient" agriculture but it's a new discovery, so WTH. I'll add it to the collection. 8)
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Post by daybrown »

<There's a pretty staggering book by Susan Blackmore called The Meme Machine discussing the idea of memes as evolving and self replicating units of culture - in other words ideas which catch on. The basic thesis of her book seems to be that (as is the case with a gene) a meme's sole interest is its own perpetuation irrespective of the consequences for its human host, hence the popularity of occasionally self-destructive ideas. Farming is basically a meme that caught on and forced those who didn't take to it into a "keeping up with the Joneses" position - hence its popularity (almost, I guess, as a means of placing oneself at the top of a heirarchy) despite the fact that "farming did not make life easier, nor did it improve nutrition, or reduce disease." (page 26/7 in my paperback copy - Oxford University Press) >

Farming is necessary, but not sufficient. The men in the Varna Graveyard, 3000BC, averaged into their late 30's, women into their mid 40's. Dramatically longer lifespans than any hunter/gather tribes. The diff is matriarchy. it keeps the population stable without destroying the environment and provides better nutrition for the kids, who- while fewer, grow up to be healthier.

Farming was a quantum leap when people lived polyamorously, before the introduction of virulent STDs. It allowed people to live in a manor hall, with one fire that kept everyone warm, and 24/7 childcare on hand from the elders.

Of course hunting tribes dont try to maintain economically independent nuclear families, and comparing their communal lifestyle to the nuclear family of the yeoman farmer makes it look good.

but the meme in this case, was a system to separate the warriors so that they were not fighting over each other's women. which will happen in any system run by men. Women at the top of the power structure dont have the problem. Like the Mosou of SW China, their financial security lies not in a relationship with any man, but the corporation that owns the house they raise their kids in.

If one looks at the work of Milgram, Bandura, Zimbardo, & Janis on group think and the way authority works you can see the cognitive dissonance that set in and destroyed many cultures. And of course, the same thing is going on now. Rational discourse on the political forums has a trivial effect.

I have likewise lost track of the number of times posters on archeology lists have told me that matriarchies never existed. It was only this year, when I discovered that the Mosou STILL EXIST, that these canned responses coming out of group think have declined.

Some of the points by Janis: http://www.cedu.niu.edu/~fulmer/groupthink.htm
relate to many of the threads here where unwarrented dismissiveness is applied to any position that falls outside the standard memes of academic archeology.

I've had some fun at political forums with http://www.911myths.com/assets/images/molten_steel.jpg
You cant get steel that color burning Jet fuel or any other hydrocarbon without, at the very least, adding pressurized oxygen to the point of combustion. If you dont believe me, as a welder.

Because the implications challenge the official 911 report so obviously, I've received lotsa flames, ad hominum, and irrational attempts at rebuttal, like saying that maybe its aluminum. Again, I've melted aluminum with a torch. It turns to soup without ever turning red. This, challenge, I note, I received from someone who doubted my word, but had not actually shown the photo to a welder.

The power of group think created by the media is remarkable. Its real simple. just show the photo to a welder. But the supporters of the official 911 report cannot believe me, and they cant ask a welder.

Dr. Freud wrote of this, how innovative a neurotic can be in trying to defend a delusion. Its well understood how intractable the condition is, but by the same token, neurotics remain somewhat *functional*. Its a damn moot point how delusional a population can be. Archeology shows us several examples where the delusion was shattered & the entire system broke down, sometimes over the course of a single day.

Another contribution by archeology, now that it has extended its work beyond the monumentalism of great empires, is how much more varied the lifestyles were, from matrariarchy to patriarchy, from aggressive to peaceful, from over exploitive & short, to environmental consciousness that lasts for millennia. We have a lot more social models to choose from if we can step beyond the limits of group think to understand what was going on.
Any god watching me hasta be bored, and needs to get a life.
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Digit
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Post by Digit »

What color is that DB?
First people deny a thing, then they belittle it, then they say it was known all along! Von Humboldt
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daybrown
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Post by daybrown »

Color is really important to a smith or welder. You an get a poker in a fire red hot, but it dont get soft. In a forge, you need to use coal and a blower, and then the color goes from dull red to orange, then yellow, the white hot before it melts. Think of the photos you've seen from a steel mill where they pour steel from a crucible, and all the white sparks that fly.

That was Bessemer's trick- to pump in compressed air, ie oxygen. But even then, the fuel is not a liquid, but a solid like coke which has chunks with more surface area. Try to diminish the droplet size to increase the relative surface of a liquid hydrocarbon, and you dont get a fire, but an explosion. Which makes your engine run.

http://www.911myths.com/assets/images/molten_steel.jpg
shows the bottom edge of the metal, ie that part which was buried in a pile of hot metal, is yellow. Ask a welder. You aint gonna get that color pouring jet fuel on it. I frankly dont know the actual temp. What I do know, is that when I pulled it from my forge at that color, it was mushy.

I dunno the scale of the equipment. but for a chunk 1 sq ft, I'd havta run the *blower* for an hour or so to get it that hot. I could do it gonzo faster if I used my acetylene torch with pure oxygen, but my torch aint big enuf to deal with a hunk that big. I've never seen a torch big enuf to deal with a hunk over a few inches square at at time. And, it'd take an ungodly amount of oxygen.

But more to the point is group think. The studies show the truly remarkable degrees of misperception people can have. They quite literally will not believe their own eyes. Only about 10-15% of a group will stand by their own perceptions of reality.

Similarly, the very people who should understand the human mind suffer from group think. Dr. Stuart Taylor, for example, has done work analyzing brain chemisty, eg the effect of seratonin level and the response to alcohol, which so often leads to violence. The *average* seratonin level varies in different gene pools, and this therefore has a tremendous effect on the average rate of violence.

This is a *genetic* endowment, or challenge that liberal social scientists just cannot deal with because it causes cognitive dissonance with their understandable efforts to counter racism. But they are beginning to identify the DNA markers. If you look at the pattern of markers of a violent convict, and then search thru his male kin for those who have the same pattern, you see the same evidence of violence, and quite often will find them in prison.

Cognitive dissonnance has often led to environmental degredation, which led to food shortages, which created enuf stress to wake people up, shatter their delusions, and thereby produce revolution.

i cant change any of that. What I can do, which I am doing, is expand the size of my garden. There are that 10-15% of the population who can think beyond the limits of group think, but the majority selects the leadership in a democracy.

One of the appeals of archeology is the consideration of how other groups thot. Most especially the ancient sages who saw beyond the limits of the group think they lived with.
Any god watching me hasta be bored, and needs to get a life.
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