What's the difference between a handaxe and a Folsom point?

[Charlie Hatchett]

Fair ccomment RS, which leads me to enquire as to how did HE produce fire?
Any ideas anyone?

Here's a cool forum on experimental primitive fire making:

http://p081.ezboard.com/Fire-Making/fpa ... 69529frm65

Several methods:



Bow Drill



Hand Drill









Striking Flint or Pyrite on Pyrite

[Forum Monk]

There may be another use for the smaller folsom points, not discuessed. Perhaps smaller points could be used for fish, although the shape may not be as functional as some other designs which are barbed. But smaller prey demands "lighter" weapons. Also, small game such as rodents, squirrels, rabbits.

As for afixing the point to a shaft, without cutting the fingers, it doesn't seem like a difficult task to me. Afterall, you wouldn't hold it by the sharp edges unless you're as stupid as what early man is often portrayed. There are two nice, flat, unsharped sides for holding the point.

[War Arrow]

Aha. I see my error now.

In the American southwest, at about 8000 BC, a refinement in fluting produced the well-known Folsom point; specimens of this type supersede Clovis and are often associated with bison 'kills.' All these points, because of their size and weight, are considered to be the 'business' end of spears which were hurled with the aid of a spearthrower.
- Michael D. Coe, Mexico: From the Olmecs to Aztecs (Thames & Hudson)

Having occasionally dummy-like tendencies, I read supersede as precede and, in the absence of any clarifying statement I read because of their size and weight as indicating something bigger. What can I say but D'oh!?
Interesting idea about the fire drill as precursor to bow and arrow, and on that latter point, Coe also writes that the popularity of the atlatl was widespread in Mexico and that:

The bow and arrow was a late arrival... and was not adopted at all in many areas.

It makes sense to me that an atlatl propelled spear (15 times the speed and 200 times the impact of a regular hand thrown spear according to Dr Dennis Stanford of the Smithsonian Institute, it says here) would be pretty good for bringing down bison etc, but I've got to wonder at that bit about its popularity in Mexico over the bow and arrow (Right up until the Conquest too) - the biggest game animals in Mexico were deer (or possibly tapir I suppose) plus SURELY you have a much, much greater chance of hitting your target with bow and arrow - especially if that target is small and lively (rabbits, birds etc).
Anyone?

[gunny]

According to Dr. Hester, from UT Austin, the bow and arrow did not appear in Texas until about 1000AD

[Rokcet Scientist]

Charlie's pictures are of course right, digit. Firemaking is easy. I did it – without bow – when I was 8 years old: I was in the Boy Scouts. For me that was a 'game' of course, but the method is still being used by hunters/gatherers today. Witness these Kalahari Bushmen. Photos made on June 3rd in Namibia:


Note that they don't use a bow for firemaking.



They do use a shooting bow and arrows for hunting though:


Proxy dancing:
http://download.yousendit.com/E95FEF9E14FAB1B7

[Digit]

http://www.ele.net/workshop/intro.htm
http://www.amnh.org/exhibitions/expedit ... nt.html?50

I'm not sure I explained myself very well here Monk, so I've posted theses 2 articles. Now if you're going to bind the point as shown why has the point got 2 cutting edges along the sides?
Why does the point taper towards the the base? If you wanted the binding to hold the point, common sense suggests that it should be broader towards the base.
Fire starting using two hands to twist the rod I think would soon lead to putting a twist of thong around the shaft and having two people pull first one way then the other. The bow would follow.
I have no proof for my opinion but till there some evidence to the contrary I believe our ancestors were no less bright than we.

[Digit]

Fair comment RS. But I haven't found it that easy to start a fire that way, in fact I found it hard on the hands. Also of course, some people did use a bow, my question was which came first, the bow for hunting or for fire starting, and I wonder which genius discover how to make fire that way in the first place? I wonder if the bow drill started it off because early man was drilling some pretty small holes.

[Rokcet Scientist]

Fire starting using two hands to twist the rod I think would soon lead to putting a twist of thong around the shaft and having two people pull first one way then the other. The bow would follow.

Yes, the bow would follow. Eventually.
But that is a fire starting bow!

The next step, turning a fire starting bow into an effective mainstream hunting weapons system, however, requires quite a leap of imagination in my opinion. Consequently it may have taken quite some time, read: many hundreds of thousands of years – at least! – between the invention of the fire starting bow and the bow and arrows as a weapons system.

IF there is a direct relationship!
(Of which I'm not convinced yet).

[gunny]

The San Bushmen now use Bic lighters shown in a recent National Geographic. Not so dumb. Arrowheads, such as Perdiz and Scallern, once called "bird points", were used to kill deer and bison, along with a few white folks in Central Texas. None were dated before about 1000AD. The atlatl was commonly used along with the bow and arrow until firearms were in supply.

[gunny]

The Comanches kept their bows and arrors until repeating rifles were common. They could fire five arrows while the muzzle loading rifles were reloading. In our war of independence, Ben Franklin suggested ranks of long bow men to face the British at the typical 50 yard battle distance. He knew a lot ahead of his time.

[gunny]

When they raised the Mary Rose which capsised intact, they were amazed at the lack of firearms, but found tons of bows and arrows for the troops. Silent, deadly, we used them in Nam with a little fecal material in the barb to make them smell good.

[Digit]

Aye Gunny, and one of the bows had an estimated draw weight of 150 pounds!
'When ships were made of wood the men were made of iron, and when the ships were made of iron the men were made of wood', or so I've been told.

[Rokcet Scientist]

tons of bows and arrows for the troops. Silent, deadly, we used them in Nam with a little fecal material in the barb to make them smell good.

WHOA! That's quite a statement, gunny. As that is in direct contravention of the Geneva Convention that confession makes you a war criminal, mister....

[Digit]

If you read the Geneva Convention RS most soldiers are like to be so classified at some time.
Unlees it's been changed since I was in the aircraft industry it allowed nuclear weapons, but you were not permitted to use small calibre explosive shells. 20 mm, 30mm, 37mm, exactly that which most strike aircraft are armed with!
Oh, and shot guns were a no no as well.

[Minimalist]

We don't follow the Geneva conventions anymore.