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Minimalist wrote:How do pastoral nomads fit into the mix? They are not settled but follow given tracks through a specific territory looking to feed and water their animals.


I suspect that civilization is one of those words which has mor exceptions to its meanings than it does meanings itself.

Very slippery term, indeed.

I'm not sure that pastoral nomads do fit Min.
Modern H/Gs exist under considerable population pressure, HSE probably didn't.
Act one. Scene one.
A H/G group hives off of parent group, they move the minimum distance that permits them to exist, they can then retain social links with parent group.
They need water, so make camp on river or lake. They are not going to run out of fish, shellfish, and in season bird's eggs etc as well.
Water will bring their prey to them.
What they will eventually exhaust is fire wood.
They move on within their new territory, and a few years later thay are back to their first site.
The trees they cut will now have produced new 'poles', much easier to fell and use as firewood, spear shafts etc.
They would be able to sustain this pattern of existance near indefintely.

Digit wrote:
[...] They would be able to sustain this pattern of existance near indefintely.

And indeed, the NA indians, the aboriginals, and the papua seem to have done exactly that (and nothing more!) up until 1 or 2 centuries ago. Methinks the better part of a million years counts as 'indefinitely', don't you?

Rokcet Scientist wrote:

Digit wrote:
[...] They would be able to sustain this pattern of existance near indefintely.

And indeed, the NA indians, the aboriginals, and the papua seem to have done exactly that (and nothing more!) up until 1 or 2 centuries ago. Methinks the better part of a million years counts as 'indefinitely', don't you?

What exactly do you mean by "nothing more"? They loved and raised their young, loved and enjoyed their spouses (sometimes ), created art, enjoyed one anothers company (sometimes ), ate, drank, slept, etc...what else is there?

And they were healthier than the early farmers.

Yeah, I reject the idea that "progress" must be linear and constant. People change when something they have always done no longer works.

(Well....everyone except Bush.)

Minimalist wrote:
People change when something they have always done no longer works.

That's waaay too simple, Min. People also change when they want to. And people change when a dime suddenly drops. And people change when conditions do.

Minimalist wrote:Yeah, I reject the idea that "progress" must be linear and constant. People change when something they have always done no longer works.

Dead right, and backtracking to civilisation, I'd define it as the point at which a settled tribal group begins to demonstrate qualities that inspire neighbours to either join up or start their own version. So civilisation is when people want to start keeping up with the Joneses. Or the Flintstones. Maybe.

War Arrow wrote:
backtracking to civilisation, I'd define it as the point at which a settled tribal group begins to demonstrate qualities that inspire neighbours to either join up or start their own version. So civilisation is when people want to start keeping up with the Joneses. Or the Flintstones. Maybe.

Very interesting analysis.
Of course civilisation is a process, not a state.

Minimalist wrote:
How do pastoral nomads fit into the mix? They are not settled but follow given tracks through a specific territory looking to feed and water their animals.

Rollin' Rollin' Rollin'

Keep movin', movin', movin',
Though they're disapprovin',
Keep them doggies movin' Rawhide!
Don't try to understand 'em,
Just rope and throw and grab 'em,
Soon we'll be living high and wide.
Boy my heart's calculatin'
My true love will be waitin', be waiting at the end of my ride.

Move 'em on, head 'em up,
Head 'em up, move 'em out,
Move 'em on, head 'em out Rawhide!
Set 'em out, ride 'em in
Ride 'em in, let 'em out,
Cut 'em out, ride 'em in Rawhide.

Full Lyrics

Rollin', rollin', rollin'
Rollin', rollin', rollin'
Rollin', rollin', rollin'
Rollin', rollin', rollin'
Rawhide!

Rollin', rollin', rollin'
Though the streams are swollen
Keep them dogies rollin'
Rawhide!
Rain and wind and weather
Hell-bent for leather
Wishin' my gal was by my side.
All the things I'm missin',
Good vittles, love, and kissin',
Are waiting at the end of my ride

CHORUS
Move 'em on, head 'em up
Head 'em up, move 'em on
Move 'em on, head 'em up
Rawhide
Count 'em out, ride 'em in,
Ride 'em in, count 'em out,
Count 'em out, ride 'em in
Rawhide!

Keep movin', movin', movin'
Though they're disapprovin'
Keep them dogies movin'
Rawhide!
Don't try to understand 'em
Just rope, throw, and brand 'em
Soon we'll be living high and wide.
My hearts calculatin'
My true love will be waitin',
Be waitin' at the end of my ride.

Rawhide!
Rawhide!

Aaaah!