Could Abraham be from the Vedas?

Beagle · Post by **Beagle** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 5:20 pm

Minimalist wrote:
When we compare the flood stories from Gilgamesh and the Old Testament, we readily acknowledge that they are two versions of the sme story.

Well....most of us, Beags.

Well, maybe I should have said the similarities are obvious, but you know what I mean. As you know, I've posted this Abraham/Brahma thing before. When you look at it, it too seems pretty obvious.

Damn we just had a bad storm here. I was off line for a bit.

Ishtar · Post by **Ishtar** » Tue Nov 06, 2007 3:36 am

The other thing is the interplay between Abr aham and Br ahman.

Abr means 'father' in Hebrew. So that gets us 'father of God/gods'.

But in the Vedic scriptures, Brahman is the primary creator and progenator of the human race. He was given that role by the over-arching and supreme Godhead, Vishnu.

So could it be 'father from God'?

Forum Monk · Post by **Forum Monk** » Tue Nov 06, 2007 5:21 am

In hebrew, Abram means "exalted father". Later his name is changed to Ab-aham-goyim which is translated, "father of many nations". In some etymologies I have seen the letter "r" is not present but is added by the greek rendering. In true hebrew fashion there was a certain prophetic irony to the names as according to Genesis, he was childless until old age.

The translation of YHWH is simply I am that I am.

So the hebrew meanings of these names do not reflect the Vedic meanings.

Manystones · Post by **Manystones** » Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:40 am

I am way out of my depth here, but interested nonetheless...

I am sure Marduk could have added something of value here. What are the Sumerian meanings, for instance Abr=Neglect?

Beagle · Post by **Beagle** » Tue Nov 06, 2007 7:10 am

The discussion is drifting toward linguistics, prompting me to give an opinion of this non-science.

There are universities that offer a Baccalaureate in Linguistics. I haven't found any others that have a post graduate program in it. A linguist is regarded as someone who can translate a variety of languages used in the modern world (by one definition). They are often translaters, etc.

Too often, people with little or no formal education claim to be linguists who can translate ancient languages that are not recognized as decipherable, as in Native American glyphs (Barry Fell).

It is difficult to find any two so called linguists that agree when it comes to very ancient languages. In my opinion, this is way beyond their scope.

I welcome any enlightenment.

Forum Monk · Post by **Forum Monk** » Tue Nov 06, 2007 7:21 am

Granted, Beagle, but there are still millions of people who speak hebrew today. (even if it has evolved somewhat)

Beagle · Post by **Beagle** » Tue Nov 06, 2007 7:35 am

Regarding your earlier post FM, I don't understand the point of your translation. In the Vedas, Brahma is also regarded as the "father" of many people, if not the progenitor of the Indian clade.

It's logical to me that once the story is "transplanted" that local cultural
attributes and linguistics take over.

The similarities, I don't think, can be discounted.

Forum Monk · Post by **Forum Monk** » Tue Nov 06, 2007 7:43 am

Beagle wrote:In the Vedas, Brahma is also regarded as the "father" of many people, if not the progenitor of the Indian clade.

This is the first mention of this in the thread. And it does not correspond with the posts of Ishtar:

Ishtar wrote:Now, according to Frank Moore Cross in Canaanite Myth and Hebrew Epic, ‘abr’ (as in Canaanite Habrat and Amorite Ilabrat) is the root word of ‘father’. So that gives us ‘Father of God’ or ‘Father of the pure Consciousness.’

Ishtar wrote:The other thing is the interplay between Abr aham and Br ahman.
Abr means 'father' in Hebrew. So that gets us 'father of God/gods'.
But in the Vedic scriptures, Brahman is the primary creator and progenator of the human race. He was given that role by the over-arching and supreme Godhead, Vishnu.

So could it be 'father from God'?

Beagle · Post by **Beagle** » Tue Nov 06, 2007 7:54 am

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahma

At the beginning of the process of creation, Brahmā created eleven Prajapatis (used in another sense), who are believed to be the fathers of the human race. The Manusmriti enumerates them as Marichi, Atri, Angirasa, Pulastya, Pulaha, Kratu, Vasishtha, Prachetas or Daksha, Bhrigu, and Narada. He is also said to have created the seven great sages or the Saptarishi to help him create the universe. However since all these sons of his were born out of his mind rather than body, they are called Manas Putras or mind-sons or spirits.

This is the first mention of this in the thread. And it does not correspond with the posts of Ishtar

No offense to Ishtar, but it wasn't my intention to be in "sync" with her posts. The above quote from Wiki is one demonstration of Brahma's identity as a progenitor. As Abraham was the father of many people.

Beagle · Post by **Beagle** » Tue Nov 06, 2007 7:57 am

My apologies, but I must leave for now. I'll be back later today. Very interesting discussion, and I hate to miss it.

Manystones · Post by **Manystones** » Wed Nov 07, 2007 4:11 am

The king Iddin-Dagan the father of Icme dagan is described as Enlil in several texts where they lament the fall of Ur.

Iddin-Dagan, 3rd king of Isin 1974-1954BCE. Ishme-Dagan, 4th king of Isin 1953-1935BCE

ID DIN means shining water, another way of saying that is by using the formal words for pure and water which are AB.RA.

Couldn't find a ham anywhere thats equivalent to Dagan (god) but the symbol of this particular god (EN.LIL) is of course the bird, and the sumerian word for that is HA.MUN which of course can be abbreviated to HAM (this happens a lot with loan words from one langauge to another) IDDIN DAGAN AB-RA-HAM(UN)

And there is his son ICME DAGAN. Dagan is the akkadian word for "totality", the god of totality in the hebrew pantheon is "El" ICME with a hard accent on the "C" in Akkadian is pronounced softly in Hebrew as an "SH". They are both west semitic dialects ISHME EL.

ID
http://psd.museum.upenn.edu/epsd/epsd/e2493.html
DI
http://psd.museum.upenn.edu/epsd/epsd/e916.html
(Din is the basic verb element and also forms part of)
DINGIR (DEITY) represented by a shining star and
http://psd.museum.upenn.edu/epsd/epsd/e938.html
EDIN
http://psd.museum.upenn.edu/epsd/epsd/e1199.html
DAGAN
http://psd.museum.upenn.edu/epsd/epsd/e848.html
AB
http://psd.museum.upenn.edu/epsd/epsd/e53.html
RA
http://psd.museum.upenn.edu/epsd/epsd/e4566.html
HAMUN (HAM)
http://psd.museum.upenn.edu/epsd/epsd/e2282.html
ISME
http://psd.museum.upenn.edu/epsd/epsd/e2755.html
EL (God of everything)
http://www.pantheon.org/articles/e/el.html

This link is to a webpage about the two rams in a thicket statues found at Ur that predate the life of Biblical Abraham by almost a millenia
http://www.museum.upenn.edu/new/exhibit ... tion.shtml

Ishtar · Post by **Ishtar** » Wed Nov 07, 2007 9:50 am

Also, doesn't the Bible say that Abraham came out of Ur?

Post by **Minimalist** » Wed Nov 07, 2007 10:08 am

Yes. Actually it refers to Ur of the Chaldees which is another clue towards biblical dating as the Chaldees did not settle the area until c 900 BC.

Ishtar · Post by **Ishtar** » Wed Nov 07, 2007 10:17 am

So...apologies for the rookie question coming up, but is the Ur of the Chaldees in the same location as the Ur of the Sumerians?

Post by **Minimalist** » Wed Nov 07, 2007 10:41 am

Yeah, pretty much the same area. Recall that in the middle east there is a tendency for people to keep building on top of the ruins of older sites...pancake style.

http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/archaeology ... st/ur.html

Ur is known in the Bible as Ur of the Chaldees. This biblical name, Ur of the Chaldees, refers to the Chaldeans, who settled the area about 900 B.C. It is known as the ancient city of the Sumerian civilization and the home of Abraham, father of the Hebrews. Its ruins are between the modern city of Baghdad, Iraq, and the head of the Persian Gulf.