Page 2 of 9
Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 2:20 pm
by Beagle
According to Robert Bednarik, this art in Chauvet cave in France was created by Neanderthals, or Neanderthaloids. It's exciting that an expert researcher is saying so.
Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 2:26 pm
by Digit
They are certainly being recast in a different mould.
Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 2:28 pm
by Beagle
http://www.culture.gouv.fr/culture/arcnat/chauvet/en/
Here is a nice interactive map of chauvet cave and it's artworks. I agree with Richard that most of the establishment will ignore this and hope it goes away. Hopefully some people like John Hawks will comment on it.
I have to study gracilization some more, but I definately think Bednarik is on the right track.
Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 2:31 pm
by Beagle
Digit wrote:They are certainly being recast in a different mould.
Yes, it's more "extreme" than even I have been leaning toward for years.
But I've always felt that the Aurignacion technology was Neanderthal.
Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 2:35 pm
by Digit
Logic certainly indicated that Beag but on the other side of the equation were the experts, they didn't think so.
There's going to have to be a lot of re-writing of college course shortly!
Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 2:48 pm
by Manystones
Digit wrote:It's ground breaking stuff, soon the Neandertals are going to seen as our mental superiors.
Well what we can say for sure is that for a long while robust hominins had larger brains than we do now.
Worth repeating is the extract I quoted in the Rock Art thread from the RAR article. I have highlighted what I feel is particularly pertinent to the title of this thread.
"The now absurd 'African Eve' or replacement model (Stringer and Andrews 1988) was derived from the 'Afro-European sapiens' model (Brauer 1984), which in turn was based on the fake datings of Protsch. Therefore, the now unravelling paradigm was initiated by academic fraud. The replacement model, which demands complete genetic isolation of the invading Africans and the resident robusts, has been refuted, and those models that admit hybridisation between the two hypothetical populations are in reality local versions of the Multiregional Theory that merely claim a strong inflow of African genes (Relethford 2001, Relethford and Jorde 1999)......
...The traditional response, that the Neanderthals could have never been sufficiently advance to produce such masterworks, is simply no longer adequate now that all of the Aurignacian appears to be of 'Neanderthal' tradition.
European Pleistocene archaeologists need to adjust to this new scenario, and unless they can demonstrate that Chauvet was made by what they call 'moderns' or 'Cro-Magnons', they are obliged to fairly consider the possibility that this art is the work of either Neanderthals or of their descendants who experienced genetic drift rather than 'replacement' and whose breeding patterns were influenced by cultural selection: selection in favour of neotenous features. Based on the present archaeological and palaeoanthropological evidence, the latter scenario is the more likely: we have Neanderthal remains from the time of Chauvet, and we have no 'moderns'...."
Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 3:00 pm
by Manystones
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reiner_Protsch
Despite what the wiki article says, the Hahnhöfersand Man and Paderborn-Sande Man are significant in the context of supporting evidence for OOA.
Bednarik notes (again from RAR, Vol 24, 1):
"There are now virtually no 'anatomically modern' specimens known from Europe prior to the Gravettian and contemporary traditions ... and even those of the Gravettian are still relatively robust. However, there are numerous Neanderthaloid finds up to the beginning of the Gravettian, around 28,000 years BP."
Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 3:52 pm
by john
An homily to all the members of Das Klub -
"You must leave now, take what you need, you think will last.
But whatever you wish to keep, you better grab it fast.
Yonder stands your orphan with his gun,
Crying like a fire in the sun.
Look out the saints are comin' through
And it's all over now, Baby Blue.
The highway is for gamblers, better use your sense.
Take what you have gathered from coincidence.
The empty-handed painter from your streets
Is drawing crazy patterns on your sheets.
This sky, too, is folding under you
And it's all over now, Baby Blue.
All your seasick sailors, they are rowing home.
All your reindeer armies, are all going home.
The lover who just walked out your door
Has taken all his blankets from the floor.
The carpet, too, is moving under you
And it's all over now, Baby Blue.
Leave your stepping stones behind, something calls for you.
Forget the dead you've left, they will not follow you.
The vagabond who's rapping at your door
Is standing in the clothes that you once wore.
Strike another match, go start anew
And it's all over now, Baby Blue."
- Bob Dylan -
Interesting concept, that
We might be a degenerate form
Of H. heidelbergensis!
john
Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 3:54 pm
by Beagle
Manystones wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reiner_Protsch
Despite what the wiki article says, the Hahnhöfersand Man and Paderborn-Sande Man are significant in the context of supporting evidence for OOA.
Bednarik notes (again from RAR, Vol 24, 1):
"There are now virtually no 'anatomically modern' specimens known from Europe prior to the Gravettian and contemporary traditions ... and even those of the Gravettian are still relatively robust. However, there are numerous Neanderthaloid finds up to the beginning of the Gravettian, around 28,000 years BP."
In an article from 2005 John Hawks had a few words about Protsch.
http://johnhawks.net/weblog/reviews/news/protsched.html
Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 3:58 pm
by Beagle
An appropriate thought John.
Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 4:00 pm
by Digit
Bloody Hell! Is there no honesty in anything these days?
Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 4:04 pm
by Beagle
Doesn't seem to be Dig. This same sort of thing reportedly happened as recently as the Flores HB1 specimen. I could find that but I'm gonna break a little bit.
Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 4:05 pm
by john
All -
By the way, I
Am now informing you that, in addition
To the fact that there are no handaxes
In North America,
There are NO BEADS.
Thank you very much.
The Management
Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 7:35 pm
by Minimalist
No BEADS, either!!!!!
Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 11:31 am
by Beagle
I have a copy of the entire study, called The Mythical Moderns, thanks to Charlie Hatchett. I'll send a copy to Min. and see how to distribute it or what we're gonna do. I'll post select quotes here later.