The Golden Age

[Ishtar]

Monk,

I think what could possibly lie at the heart of this mystery is the number 432,000. If you add up the ages of the Babylonian kings who ruled before the flood, you get 432,000. So given that this number crops up in several civ's mythologies, these kings' ages could just be part of a cosmological metaphor.

For instance, it was the favourite number of the Vedics: 432,000 or multiples of it, makes up the number of years of a Vedic yuga (or age). Thus the current yuga (Kaliyuga) lasts for 432,000 years, the previous one lasted for 432,000 x 2 = 846,000, the one before that was 3 x 432,000 = 1,296,000, and the first one, Kritha Yuga, lasted for 4 x 432,000 = 1,728,000. These all added together make the Great Yuga of 4,320,000.

In the Norse mythology, there is a great battle of the gods that marks the final days (Ragnorak in Norse, Pralaya in Vedic), and the “Einherier” (warriors) all issue forth from the gates of Valhalla. As recorded in the Grimmismal:

“Five hundred gates and forty more – are in the mighty building of Wallhala – eight hundred Einherier come out of each gate – on the time they go out on defence against the Wolf.” Anyway, as I’m sure you’ve noticed, 540 x 800 = 432,000.

The temple at Angkor Wat in Cambodia is built using sacred geometry which is based on the number 432,000:

http://www.ece.lsu.edu/kak/ang3.pdf

Speaking just of numbers, the various lengths and circumferences of units representing the motion of the moon may equal 27, 28, 29 (nakshatras or days of the month), 354 (days of the lunar year), or 360 (tithis of the lunar year).

Other lengths represent the solar year (360, 365, or 366) or larger time cycles.For example, the west-east axis represents the periods of the yugas. The width of the moat is 439.78 cubit; the distance from the first step of the western entrance gateway to balustrade wall at the end of causeway is 867.03 cubit; the distance from the first step of the western entrance gateway to the first step of the central tower is 1,296.07 cubit; and the distance from the first step of bridge to the geographic center of the temple is 1,734.41 cubit.

These correspond to the periods of 432,000; 864,000; 1,296,000; 1,728,000 years for the Kali, Dvapara, Treta, and Krita yuga, respectively.

In addition, the Greek mathematician Ptolemy used 432,000 as the totality of the "Great Circle" of musical frequencies.

And the Rig Veda has, according to certain sources, 432,000 syllables....

I think if we can solve the riddle of 432,000, Monk, we will have the answer to your question. There is a view that the number is cosmological, and may even be related to our old friend, the precession of the equinoxes! To that end, you might find this article helpful:

http://www.boloji.com/astro/00341.htm

The Chatur-yuga [the Great Yuga, or all four yugas added together], 4,320,000 years is related to the precessional cycle, 25,867 years corresponding to a precession of 50.1 arc-seconds per year. This is amazingly close to the normally accepted value of 50.2 arc-seconds for the precessional constant.

[Ishtar]

Supporting the notion that the number 432,000 is astronomically-related is the fact that that number is the total of the ages of the Babylonian kings up to the Flood.

So we might wonder, why up to the Flood? What is the significance of the Flood? But this would make sense if the Flood itself was also part of the astronomical metaphor for the precession of the equinoxes.

Santillana and Dechend, in Hamlet’s Mill, make the case for many of the literary components of our myths being metaphors for the precession of the equinoxes.

And in The Secret of the Incas, William Sullivan (quite brilliantly, imo) sets out to compare the Andean mythology (passed down orally by Andean shamans over thousands of years) with the template laid down in Hamlet’s Mill.

He found that the Inca metaphor for the end of the world age, due to the precession of the equinoxes, was a flood.

He says:

Perhaps the most important contribution of Hamlet’s Mill is its explication of the conventions of technical language whereby myth transmits information concerning precessional motion. There are three simple rules: First, animals are stars (Zodiac means ‘dial of animals'). Second, gods are planets. And finally, topographic references are metaphors for locations – usually of the sun – on the celestial sphere.

The very ‘earth’ itself.... lies in the stars, between the tropics of Cancer and Capricorn. And all the millennia of myths from around the world recounting the destruction of that world by flood, fire, earthquake and so on – far from representing an ignorance of geological processes – “re-count” the solar year in terms of “destruction” (via the passage of precessional time) of the stars marking the solstices and equinoxes, and the “creation” of a new “world” whose parameters are determined by the stars, or “pillars”, now upholding the “earth” at the solstices and equinoxes.

The ‘earth’ is “flat”, of course, again, not as a matter of ignorance but as a matter of terminology, a means of describing the ideal plane, the ecliptic, “supported” by the four “pillars”.

And all the animals in Noah’s Ark did survive the “flood” when they landed on Ararat, the “highest mountain on earth”, itself a term describing the particular position of the sun on the celestial sphere.

So maybe we’ve been making a mistake by trying to tie in the Flood of mythology with actual historical floods, even though we know they must have happened.

All precession of the equinoxes myths end up with some kind of 'end of the world' scenario, sometimes caused by 'a cosmic war' – flood just being one of them.

[Forum Monk]

The number of years in the pre-flood Sumerian kings list depends on which version of the list you use as a reference. The Isin list compiled sometime around 1800BCE states 8 kings for a total of 241,200 years. The Larsa list, compiled sometime around the time of Hammurabi and the most complete, states 8 kings for 385,200 years. Some of the later versions have 10 kings and I think I recall one version at 10 kings for 432,000 years.

I am aware of the tons of speculation about the number, but in reading the law of Manu, chapter 1 for myself, I don't recall that number being given though I did see others making the claim. I will look again.

You would think the flood as metaphor would be rather simple to grasp. I'm not grasping it.

[Minimalist]

Hancock noted that the number "72" frequently shows up in these ancient myths.... 72 being the number of years it takes for the planet to move 1 degree through its orbit.

[Ishtar]

I am aware of the tons of speculation about the number, but in reading the law of Manu, chapter 1 for myself, I don't recall that number being given though I did see others making the claim. I will look again.

You would think the flood as metaphor would be rather simple to grasp. I'm not grasping it.

Just think 'end of the world as we know it', Monk.

It's the Berossus kings' list that makes 432,000 years up to the Flood.

BTW, don't set too much store by the Laws of the Manu. They are very late and nothing to do with Manu (if he ever existed). They were written in the Common Era and just attributed to Manu.

The 432,000 number is well attested in all the other Vedantic literature, including the Rig-veda, and the numbers of years for each age is given in the authoratative Srimad Bhagavatham.

[Ishtar]

Hancock noted that the number "72" frequently shows up in these ancient myths.... 72 being the number of years it takes for the planet to move 1 degree through its orbit.

Min, this shows how the number 72 relates to 432,000. It's all part of the same metaphor:

Our planet moves with its orbital axis pointed toward Polaris, the North Pole star. But this orientation is not stationary. It precesses over a period of 25,920 years. This precession is observed on March 21 when the vernal equinox takes place. Each year the heavenly bodies lag in their position by about 50 seconds of arc. In 72 years this lag amounts to one degree (50" X 72 = 3600" = 60' = 1 degree).

Since there are twelve signs of the zodiac each sign occupies 30 degrees. Therefore the crossing of the earth at the vernal equinox changes zodiac sign every 2160 years. The cycle completes itself through the twelve signs in the 25,920 years. The North Pole position will continue to move around the heavens until it returns to its present position directed toward Polaris 25,920 years from now -- if other geophysical events do not take place.

If we take the Sumerian time unit of one soss = 60 years and divide it into the precessional period of 25,920 we obtain 432, that magical number given by Berossus.

http://www.betnahrain.org/bbs/index.pl/ ... read/12665

The other thing to note is that 4320 divided by 72 = 60, or one unit of Sumerian time.

[rich]

Kind of brings to mind the Sumerian creation myths and the kings list and (ouch) Nibiru along with the Annunaki!

http://www.crystalinks.com/sumergods.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumerian_king_list

They listed the gods as living in sars which equated to a certain number of years.

Monk wrote:

You would think the flood as metaphor would be rather simple to grasp. I'm not grasping it.

Maybe this'll help - it references the water thing:
http://www.crystalinks.com/dilmun.html

Enki's youngest son, Ningizzida, was Lord of the Tree of Truth, in Mesopotamia. He played the role of Thoth in Egypt. The ancient Mystery School Teachings of Thoth were past down to his Initiates who became the priests. They hid the secret knowledge of creation, passing it down through the ages until the experiment was to end. Enki was the deity of water, intelligence and creation. The main temple of Enki was the so-called é-engur-ra, the "house of the water-deep" in Eridu, which was in the wetlands of the Euphrates valley at some distance from the Persian Gulf. This takes us to the Cradle of Civilization.

water: flow of consciousness - creation

[kbs2244]

The thing about age today as to the historically short life spans is that they are average ages.
Today’s medical practices stop a lot of birth and childhood deaths and that raises the average.
In the “old days” if you made it to 20 you had a good chance of making it to 60 or even 80. Barring a war injury of course.

On the legendary, really old ages, in the OT they seem to stop after the flood.
There is a lot of speculation the a world wide flood would have changed the environment in some way that drastically shortened human life.
For instance, the “waters above” being a real thick cloud cover that shielded the earth from cosmic rays, etc.

[Ishtar]

Maybe this'll help - it references the water thing:
http://www.crystalinks.com/dilmun.html

water: flow of consciousness - creation

Rich, 'scuse the pun, but I think you're muddying the waters with this.

Also, crystallinks is a little bit hippy dippy, and a not very authoriative source.

The point, imo, is the cataclysmic nature of whatever doomsday scenario they decide to use - be it a flood, or an earthquake, or a fire ball - for the end of the world age in astrological terms, which is caused by the precession of the equinoxes.

The Norse called this end of times Ragnorak. The Vedics called it Prayala. It's called the Apocalypse in the Bible.

It reads literally like its the end of the world. But it's not meant literally. It really is just a metaphor for the end of an age. The Inca used a flood for this metaphor. And as Berossos's pre-flood kings total 432,000 years in age up to the flood, it looks as if the Sumerians and the Andean shamans could have had the same idea for the symbol of the flood marking the end of the astrological age, and then the OT writers just copied it. It wouldn't be the first or only commonality that Sumerian and South American mythologies share.

But it's just a symbol to represent the end of an age.

[Ishtar]

On the legendary, really old ages, in the OT they seem to stop after the flood.

Then maybe it's the same metaphor.

Has anyone added up all their ages up to the flood?

[Forum Monk]

On the legendary, really old ages, in the OT they seem to stop after the flood.

Then maybe it's the same metaphor.

Has anyone added up all their ages up to the flood?

Yeah, according to the Mazzoratic texts its something like 1656 years from Adam to the flood. Noah was the only patriarch who survived it. The Septuagint version is over 1700 years, iirc, but none of the numbers are considered "precessional" (I hate that term).

[Minimalist]

Has anyone added up all their ages up to the flood?

Bishop Ussher.

[Ishtar]

Has anyone added up all their ages up to the flood?

Bishop Ussher.

Thanks Min. Do you know what number Bishop Ussher came up with?

[Ishtar]

Yeah, according to the Mazzoratic texts its something like 1656 years from Adam to the flood. Noah was the only patriarch who survived it. The Septuagint version is over 1700 years, iirc, but none of the numbers are considered "precessional" (I hate that term).

They don't seem very firm though, ranging from 1656 to over 1700? Would the Septuagint version be more reliable?

[Forum Monk]

Would the Septuagint version be more reliable?

That is a fairly major theological debate, probably not worth discussing in this thread.

Suffice to say, the theme of long lived patriarchs before the flood is consistent with the various myths, and enumerations from around the world.