Historical Mayan / African (by phenotype) American monarchs

[Minimalist]

Normally, I would hesitate to put too much faith in artistic representations - like the formulaic Egyptian statutes or the stylized paintings of the European renaissance - but these do seem to be trying to depict actual faces. Then you just have to worry about the skill of the sculptor.

Interesting thought about the size of the noses. Neanderthals were cited to have large noses because of a cold weather adaptation.

[dannan14]

Wasn't it more like large noses despite cold weather adaptations? One of the recent HN articles said that although they had large noses, which are usually a warm climate adaptation, the actual openings into their sinuses were small enough to restrict the airflow enough to warm and moisturize the air before it hit theirs lungs.

[PaulMarcW]

Dannan, concerning the cause for the really large noses of millenniums ago (far larger than anything seen for hundreds of years), you wrote, Wasn't it more like large noses despite cold weather adaptations?

Could be. However, we might recall that predynastic Egypt was hot and in the Narmer Palette were African prisoners with their balls of woolly hair and super huge noses.

Perhaps really huge noses were a cold weather adaptation - or maybe other reasons came into play as well? In China of 200 BC - 200 AD, among the Dian, are also found some humongous noses. I'll put up a page with these noses of both Africans and whites sometime.

It's really interesting to note how quickly the human physiognomy has changed in the last 4 millennium strictly because of lifestyle, it would seem (less hunting) as people in arctic climates today have "normal" sized noses and it is as cold now there as back then.

Just some thoughts.

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[Minimalist]

I, for one, find the superficial "racial" differences to be one of the compelling arguments against the Out of Africa theory. There simply does not seem to be enough time for even those changes to have happened to the extent seen.

And that, is completely ignoring the far more substantive skeletal differences which have been noted.

[PaulMarcW]

You speak about changes? They happen all the time everywhere, right? Even in a nuclear family, unless there are identical twins, people seldom look the same; each is the beginning of a look and lineage distinctive enough that one can be discerned from another.

Might not there be greater issues involved in this question?
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[Minimalist]

Try looking at it from the opposite point of view.

"Out of Africa" claims that modern humans (HSS) entered Europe c 40-30,000 bc and replaced (without interbreeding) the existing Neanderthal types (HNS).

If that is the case, why do we not see more stereotypical African genetic types in Europe? Shouldn't they form the dominant genetic base merely on the fact that they were the victors in the Battle for Europe?


It's just that something does not seem to add up here.

[PaulMarcW]

I'm not sure I go along with this idea of no interbreeding. I think there likely was some.

In any case, here is the next monarch. And, season's greetings to all:

The 4th of 17 known Monarchs: TODAY’S MONARCH: King K’inich Janaab Pakal, 615-683 AD, Palenque, Chiapas, Mexico


After the first page below will be added the fourth of 17 monarchs. The pictures can be seen below if your browser allows it. Otherwise, they can be seen at the link.

BRIEF BIOGRAPHY OF K’INICH JANAAB PAKAL: Pacal, which means “shield” expanded Palenque's power in the western part of the Mayan states. K'Inich Janaab Pakal, the ninth Mayan king of Palenque, initiated a historic building program. At his capital, some of the finest art and architecture of Mayan civilization was produced.

INTRODUCTION TO PAGE, KING'S LIST, 25 AFRICAN-MAYAN ANALOGIES: http://www.beforebc.de/all_america/900_ ... archs.html

King K’Inich Janaab Pakal, 615 AD – 683 AD:

http://www.beforebc.de/all_america/900_ ... 10-01.html

Note: A comprehensive listing of the monarchs shown appears at this link following their introduction:
http://www.beforebc.de/all_america/900_ ... index.html

Marc Washington
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[Digit]

I'm with Min here. The Australian aboriginal population have been in racial isolation for some 40-60000 yrs and appear to have changed virtually not at all. Same with the Andamans and the Ainu.
Why?

Roy.

[PaulMarcW]

Hi Roy. You write: " The Australian aboriginal population have been in racial isolation for some 40-60000 yrs and appear to have changed virtually not at all. Same with the Andamans and the Ainu."

Here is a page with the Anadaman Islanders in the picture and I'd say they are descendents of the San / Bushman and haven't changed. So, I agree with you.

Here is a page centering on the Ainu and some of their phenotypic shifts over the millennium:


http://www.beforebc.de/all_africa/05-09c.html

Here is a picture of the Ainu taken near 1920 showing them at this time as full facial featured people with wiry / woolly hair:


http://www.beforebc.de/600_fareast/03-1 ... 08-03.html

And here is the way the Japanese government shows them today:


http://www.beforebc.de/600_fareast/03-1 ... 08-05.html

Here is my page on Japan with more links.

http://www.beforebc.de/600_fareast/Afri ... Japan.html

The fact about Japan is that today's population arrived near the era of the Mongul expansion of the Ghengis and Kubla Khan (during the European Middle Ages) and displaced the then indigenous population.

I'd need to develop about three more web pages to produce evidence I either have or know exists to present what I think shows the "true" picture of pre-Middle Ages Japan.

[PaulMarcW]

Oops. I forgot to put the Ainu page in that goes at the top of the previous post:


http://www.beforebc.de/600_fareast/03-16-600-00-08.html

Today's Ainu are a completely different race than the "original" Ainu.

A tangent: it's interesting that the elders seen in row [F] have their eyes closed in "public meditation" as do Buddhist monks. There is the memory, too, of Buddhist monks of 8th through 11th century India also with eyes closed in "public meditation."

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[Digit]

Thanks for the images Marc.
The Ainu, according to my reading, are now all but extinct as a race, being heavily interbred with the larger Japanese population. My reference was to before this happened. I imagine that most of the other early people OOA will go the same way.
The people of Papua and Australia seem to bear a very strong resemblance, or did when first in contact with Europeans, and would seem to have originated in Africa.
They also seem to be completely different to the European's idealised idea of our ancestors from, supposedly, Africa as portrayed as Cro-Magnon.
Right or wrong this seems to me to indicate that the much greater variation in racial types in Europe and Asia must be as a result of cross-breeding. If not then we have to ask why has there been so much change in Europe and Asia and so little in the isolated races mentioned earlier in the same time period.
Having studied the various genetic maps available to me shows a conflict between my argument and the genetic evidence, then I start thinking, dominant and recessive, then reach for my glass and lie down.
I don't think the genetic evidence has the full answer-yet.
Certainly the 'typical' Cro-Magnon is not typical of the modern European. Mta DNA from C-M is N, apparently not now common in mainland Europe, mainly Eurasia and the mid East.
That would seem to require some explaining.
Again it seems to me to suggest one of two scenario, either C-M withdrew or his genes have been lost in the present population.
From here on I pass!

Roy.

[PaulMarcW]

Roy. I hear what you're saying. I think pictures speak louder than words. I have about 4 relevant pages on this subject. Here is one of them dealing with (mostly) pre-Bronze Age worldwide female populations.


http://www.beforebc.de/Made.by.Humankin ... 13-01.html

Best regards,
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[Minimalist]

I'm not sure I go along with this idea of no interbreeding. I think there likely was some.

Oh, Paul. Make no mistake. SO DO I! I think the model being put out by The Club is absurd.

We know that Homo Erectus spread across the world c 1 million ybp. Now, if we want to start talking about evolutionary change occurring across a million years and fed by successive waves of immigration then I can buy it.

The one thing that seems unassailable is that both HE and HSS arose in Africa which, initially it would seem, makes all of us "African."

[Digit]

Four things about the 'official' view point of human development that make me want to throw up Min are these.

One... Toba selected the human race for near elimination whilst leaving, as far as I know, all other species intact.
This is nearly as selective as God's slaughter of the first born in Egypt.

Two... from this tiny genetic base, in a geological blink of an eye, we spread all over this planet and underwent the most amazing physical changes.

Three... why was Toba so selective? That has to be explained or the idea is a poor joke.

Four...whilst we were changing skeletal shape, hair colour, eye colour, hair form etc did no other species show any where near as many or as rapid changes during that same period.

Till these questions are answered they will not go away.

Roy.

[PaulMarcW]

Min. The male of the human species has such profligate sexual behavior that I am sure many a Neanderthal woman left unattended was the object of the amorous attention of many a HSS man.

I'd imagine that more than one of these unions produced progeny. I think that given some bell-shaped curve with this or that genetic makeup at the furthest opposite ends and everything in-between that over the deca-millenniums, there are going to be favorable matches producing offspring. I think the law of averages would mandate it.

I'd go further. I'd say that in the Australian aborigine (their ancestors all say arrived even 60 tya), we'd see some of the most ancient human prototypes; and that when they with today's peoples beget children that this shows what the possibilities were deca-millenniums ago.

In their offspring we see the superimposition of old and new? Are they themselves some superimposition of "old" and from ages back, "new"?