1 inch thick layer of comet impact debris near Sandusky

[Minimalist]

You see, guys, this is one of my pet peeves about almost all academic fields. Everyone seems to have such pigeon-holed areas of expertise that they can not/will not take off their own blinders to look at the totality of the problem.

OK. Rant over. I feel better now.

[Minimalist]

At E.P's instigation, I ran another search and found this copy of the Reinhart article from last December.

Again, a somewhat off-the-beaten-path kind of publication but the original link to the "Progressor Times" had blanked out.

http://www.ourstrangeworld.net/index.ph ... n_history/

Again, E.P., I don't think that this idea is at all controversial around here.

We believe!

[E.P. Grondine]

At E.P's instigation, I ran another search and found this copy of the Reinhart article from last December.

Again, a somewhat off-the-beaten-path kind of publication but the original link to the "Progressor Times" had blanked out.

http://www.ourstrangeworld.net/index.ph ... n_history/

Again, E.P., I don't think that this idea is at all controversial around here.

We believe!

Hi Min -

"Believing" and "knowing" or "thinking" are dfferent activities. In this case the story, and the data, are simply being moved to the side. The story and the data recieved no national play. I think this is because historical an proto-historical impact events evidence a hazard which people find difficult to deal with.

[Minimalist]

Look, a lot of people still believe in a world-covering flood no matter how much geological evidence is presented to show that it is an impossibility.

In general, I think that the idea of an impact c 12000 BC has caught on quite quickly (as these things go) in the scientific community if for no other reason than it presents a pile of actual evidence which cannot be easily ignored. Consider, by way of contrast, the resistance which the Clovis-First types put up in defense of their theory.

[Cognito]

EP, I have recently seen the comet impact theory referred to as pseudoscience by one writer. In spite of that, the black mat at the Clovis level containing magnetic spherules and nano diamonds represents solid evidence that, at a minimum, there was an enormous atmospheric detonation at that time - maybe a series of them.

You hit the nail on the head: accepting such a serious extinction event only 13,000 years ago is unnerving to many. We are consistently brainwashed to believe that we are controlling nature. However, along comes a comet(s) or meteorite(s) and most of North America is wiped out in an event that makes a nuclear holocaust look like playtime.

The evidence will prevail.

[E.P. Grondine]

EP, I have recently seen the comet impact theory referred to as pseudoscience by one writer.

Which is why that inch and a half impact layer at Tankersley's site is so important.

In spite of that, the black mat at the Clovis level containing magnetic spherules and nano diamonds represents solid evidence that, at a minimum, there was an enormous atmospheric detonation at that time - maybe a series of them.

If the Shawnee traditions are correct, there was a series of them. The field teams who are trying to get to possible impact sites have no money.

NASA's budget has been controlled for the last 5 years by Mars Nuts, who think that the US taxpayer has nothing better to do than spend $100,000,000,000 (100 Billion) flying a few men to Mars. Some of the impact "specialists" NASA management has relied on to avoid their responsibilities in dealing with this hazard need to be fired.

You hit the nail on the head: accepting such a serious extinction event only 13,000 years ago is unnerving to many. We are consistently brainwashed to believe that we are controlling nature. However, along comes a comet(s) or meteorite(s) and most of North America is wiped out in an event that makes a nuclear holocaust look like playtime.

You can barely imagine how lonely it was in 1997, when I stumbled into the enormity of the problem, working alone at the time. End of Newton's clockwork universe, God's divine plan, etc. As I was a deist then (and still am), these impacts were tough to face.

I really really sympathize with those who had been working on this well before I stumbled into it.

The evidence will prevail.

In the end, I am certain that "Man and Impact in the Americas" will do quite well after its finished killing me. I need money, and I need it now. Anyone want to buy a book? It makes a great gift for any friends you may have of Native American heritage.

[E.P. Grondine]

Funny how things work. Note how this gets noted here, while Tankersley's site gets ignored:

http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/sc ... t=&sid=101

While Brad Lepper did some excellent work tracing the Shawnee sacbe between Newark and Chillicothe, and has done some excellent work on several archaeological frauds, this time he's blown it.

Unlike the folks who authored this paper, the archaeologists who Kenneth enlisted were archaeologists, and the geologists Firestone enlisted were intimately familiar with impact products. I wonder who let this one in PNAS. It will be interesting to see if PNAS publishes Firestone et al's response, but in any case the waters have been muddied again.

Somebody needs to tell Brad there were multiple epicenters, none of them close to Nova Scotia. As for Parkhill in Ontario, the dates need to be looked at closely. The Five Nations remember surviving this impact event, and that most likely explains a quick re-appearance there.

E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas

[Minimalist]

This article still fails to address the evidence for an impact event. Instead it suggests that Parkhill was flourishing at the time of the impact and continued.

However, this site...

http://www.ssc.uwo.ca/anthropology/cje/Parkhill.htm


dates Parkhill to about 8,000 BC, quite a ways after Firestone's projected date of c 11,000 BC.

A lot can happen in 3,000 years.

[Cognito]

From Mr. Lepper's article:

Those different names, however, do not imply that the parent culture disappeared or that a catastrophe is required to explain the transition from Clovis to later cultures.

OK, fine. Explain the Black Mat and its chemical signature at 10,900bce. I am not reading that there was one impact or that everything and everybody died as a result.

[E.P. Grondine]

This article still fails to address the evidence for an impact event. Instead it suggests that Parkhill was flourishing at the time of the impact and continued.

However, this site...

http://www.ssc.uwo.ca/anthropology/cje/Parkhill.htm


dates Parkhill to about 8,000 BC, quite a ways after Firestone's projected date of c 11,000 BC.

A lot can happen in 3,000 years.

Right-o, Min. These Parkhill folks were elk hunters, and their flints did not come from Flint Hill, Ohio, as did other elk hunting points further south, which most definitely were not fluted.

Little doubt the Parkhill folk were extincted or nearly extincted by the Red Paint plague(s) ca. 8,350 BCE, hence the "ca. 8,000" date. At least the big game hunters further south were. Poof, gone, vanished.

I suppose one of the my big Parkhill questions is whether they were Algonquin who had come south in those 3,000 years, or Iroquoian who had gone north from New York in the 3,000 years from the Holocene start impacts.

I'm too tired right now to try to dig out an answer, but based on the fluting, I'd say from New York north. If their graves were collective re-internments, then that would be a sure sign of Iroquoian; if not, then algonquin would be possible guess. An important point is that they were on a lake shore, so their marine tech (f any) may provide more clues.

[E.P. Grondine]

Here's one result of the suppression:

On the Aztlan mailing list, I posted a link to a copy of the Sandusky article which I had posted at the paleo forum:
http://forum.palanth.com/index.php?PHPS ... ic=1077.15

These replies came in:

From: "J. L. Baker" <sierradeagua@yahoo.com>
To:aztlan@lists.famsi.org, epgrondine@yahoo.com

Last night I listened to a talk by Allen West, a geophysicist involved with the comet theory. I was not impressed, nor were many in the audience, including professors from the U of A, who raised a number of questions that West was unable to adequately answer. The biggest issue to be raised was "where is the impact crater?" and there are several elements missing from the late Clovis deposits that are universally associated with metorite impacts.

It should be noted here that Grondine has published a book on the impact of comets and asteroids on the planet, and the link he provided us with does not link to the data he discusses, but, to a webpage of comments on the article, with most of the comments by Grondine himself. The phrase "the remains of blast killed mega-fauna" sounds very suspicious to me.

And, I should note, that these remains were not mentioned by West himself at last nights talk.

If these mega-fauna were killed by the blast, then why is there not an impact crater near Toledo, OH?
Sincerely,
Jeffrey L. Baker, Ph.D

Essentially, Baker told me that the article was not there. And Doug Weller then chimed in:

From: "Doug Weller" <dweller@ramtops.co.uk>
To: aztlan@lists.famsi.org
Take a look at this link:
http://www.bristol.ac.uk/news/2009/6123.html
There are quite a few reasons to be skeptical of the impact hypothesis.
Doug

From: "Doug Weller" <dweller@ramtops.co.uk>
To: aztlan@lists.famsi.org
I've also found some discussion of Tankersley's stuff here:
http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/meteo ... /date.html

I've had a stroke, and my head is about to explode again. If any of you want a signed copy of my book, I'd suggest getting it soon.

E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas

[Minimalist]

The biggest issue to be raised was "where is the impact crater?"

On the glacier which subsequently melted? I saw a special about this. Someone actually did an experiment.

[E.P. Grondine]

The biggest issue to be raised was "where is the impact crater?"

On the glacier which subsequently melted? I saw a special about this. Someone actually did an experiment.

Righto, Min, but there were several other impacts at the same time of other comet fragments other than the one south of Hudson's Bay. Money to sort them out is non-existant.

In case you haven't noticed, I'm pretty bitter about archaeology in the news missing posting a link to the original article from the Sandusky paper. Perhaps if they had I wouldn't be dealing with the ***** **** from these ***** **** *******s.

[Minimalist]

Can't win 'em all, E.P.

[E.P. Grondine]

A possible candidate for one of the holocene impacts may be here:

http://www.meridianbooster.com/ArticleD ... ?e=1484183

We'll see.

E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas