Cloth-Clad Clovis

[wxsby]

To rephrase in light of these comments... is there any distinguishable difference between atlatl dart points and (bow and) arrow points (both stone)?

[Rokcet Scientist]

To rephrase in light of these comments... is there any distinguishable difference between atlatl dart points and (bow and) arrow points (both stone)?

Good point...! Do we have any lithics experts left who could shine a light on that?
But, to jump the gun a bit, suppose we can tell the difference, then how does it pertain to the peopling of the Americas? Did atlatls come from Asia, and bows and arrows from the south, or the east?

[uniface]

A small enough, thin enough point could be either. The rest is conjecture and supposition.

[wxsby]

Good point...! Do we have any lithics experts left who could shine a light on that?
But, to jump the gun a bit, suppose we can tell the difference, then how does it pertain to the peopling of the Americas? Did atlatls come from Asia, and bows and arrows from the south, or the east?

I have seen evidence (can't find it right now... will keep trying) that bow and arrow technology entered the Americas via Alaska about 3000-2800 YBP, and spread throughout the Americas. It first spread down the west coast and through Canada and lastly to the southeast part of North America and the Carribean. If there had been trade w/ other places before then, that should have been the first import.

[wxsby]

Here is one interpretation:

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl= ... s%3Disch:1

Similar to what I found before... but I have doubts about the copper points as they didn't catch on enough to become the preferred point... although vastly superior technology. As I have my doubts about the Indians mining and smelting any metals... just not enough evidence.

[wxsby]

Looking at info on this subject, I was very suprised to find that several states have an atlatl hunting season... extending their regular season. Atlatls are described as big game weapons... for BIG game, i.e., http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... Id=5221826

Maybe atlatl points are bigger? I think I might try one of these things.. might be fun. Anybody ever 'fired' one?

[Rokcet Scientist]

I have seen evidence (can't find it right now... will keep trying) that bow and arrow technology entered the Americas via Alaska about 3000-2800 YBP, and spread throughout the Americas. It first spread down the west coast and through Canada and lastly to the southeast part of North America and the Carribean. If there had been trade w/ other places before then, that should have been the first import.

If the fluted points are arrowheads, Clovis had bows and arrows. If the fluted points are atlatl tips, Clovis had atlatls. Maybe he had both. They each have their own purpose. They are complementary. You're not likely to bring down a bison with an arrow. But you'll also rarely eat pigeon or squirrel if you hunt with an atlatl. Atlatls were the heavy artillery of the time.

How hard is that "bow and arrow technology entered the Americas via Alaska about 3000-2800 YBP"?

[uniface]

Atlatls:

http://paleoplanet69529.yuku.com/forums ... Forum.html

Arrowheads :

It entirely depends on how close you are when you shoot. The last knapped plains arrowheads were the smallest of all (reason : the horse allowed shooting buffalo from two feet away).

[Digit]

RS's comment about artillery started a train of thought with me.
We know that the spear came before the thrower, Woomera in Oz, and both before the bow.
Before Man came up with some form of pointed weapon his meat consumption would have been limited to that which he could catch with his hands or could trap it seems to me.
Now one thing has always puzzled me, and I have commented on it, the apparent reliance on large, and dangerous prey. RS's comments would seem to explain that.
The bow is the only long-ish range, reasonably accurate weapon available pre firearms. This would seem to me to limit the spear to the either large or slow moving animals, Mastodons, Aurochs, Bison etc.
Once they had the spear its use dictated the type of prey and the hunting tactics. A mastodon will stand its ground and face its foe and would be invulnarable to a man with a spear in front of it, thus it would have to be attacked from the side, which means a team!
That leads me to another idea, the bow would have been the only practical weapon in heavily wooded areas if hunting arboreal species, so if we can determine when Squirrels etc entered Man's diet we would seem to have a date for the bow.

Roy.

[Minimalist]

I still have problems with the idea that ancient man had only one weapon at a time.

It makes no sense. A hunting party which found itself suddenly confronted with a wild boar would near thrusting spears for defense, let alone offense. You aren't going to stop a boar with an atlatl dart and if it gets within knife range you are going to suffer some pretty serious wounds yourself.

I'd expect a hunter to equip himself with knife, something resembling a hatchet, a spear and whatever type of missile weapon they had available. But for the same reasons that we can't find ancient boats we aren't going to find ancient bows and arrows. A bow is a stick and a string and both made of organic material.

[Rokcet Scientist]

I still have problems with the idea that ancient man had only one weapon at a time.

Very unlikely. I bet a properly equipped hunter (or warrior) carried at least a spear/javelin, an atlatl with darts, a bow and arrows, a hand axe/knife, and a slingshot.

[Digit]

The assumes that the bow and the spear were contemporary Min.

Roy.

[Minimalist]

At some point in time they had to be. The Romans had a battle line of javelin-armed heavy infantry with spear-armed cavalry on the flanks and archers to the rear...a tactical setup which survived in one form or another until the invention of the machine gun.

The question is "when." But if we are relying on artifacts to determine when the bow was invented we are going to be sadly disappointed because what would a bow look like after laying around for 5,000 years....or 50,000 years.

The difference between a point for an atlatl dart and an arrow seems insignificant.

[Rokcet Scientist]

The question is "when." But if we are relying on artifacts to determine when the bow was invented we are going to be sadly disappointed because what would a bow look like after laying around for 5,000 years....or 50,000 years.

I guess it wouldn't look like anything, because it would have disintegrated. Except if it was fossilized. If we can find and ID fossilized flora and fauna, why not bows and arrows?

The difference between a point for an atlatl dart and an arrow seems insignificant.

I would presume atlatl darts are bigger on average. Especially if intended for big game hunting.
However, both atlatl darts and arrows would probably come in a range of sizes. Some smaller, some bigger. Small atlatl dart points would resemble big arrowheads. And v.v. I.o.w.: difficult to ID.

[Digit]

At some point in time they had to be.

Agreed. But one thing is striking, we have obvious spear points within the remains of mega fauna but nothing, as far as I'm aware, for smaller prey.
Most midling size prey animals are a lot faster than us, so until the bow was powerful enough to bring down such animals at a distance it would seem that large animals and spears were the only option. I think!

Roy.