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Re: A Really Good Discussion
Posted: Sat Jul 17, 2010 10:43 am
by Minimalist
This,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_South_Ossetia_war
makes it seem as if Georgia was the aggressor and the Russians replied to defend a client state.
Again, let's be clear, what the Israelis are doing ( in a somewhat haphazard manner, granted) is moving Jewish settlers into the middle of Palestinian areas and establishing enclaves which, sure as anything, will serve as flash points for future trouble.
Re: A Really Good Discussion
Posted: Sat Jul 17, 2010 11:10 am
by Digit
Georgia was the agressor as defined by Russia Min, only four? states recognise the invasion and take over as legal. The Russians had moved thousands of their people into Georgia during the days of the USSR, as they did in the Baltics, then when Georgia became independent they stepped in to 'protect' their people. In other words they had created an enclave of Russians on Georgian soil, ie, same as Israel is doing.
The Chinese are doing the same thing in Tibet and amongst the Uiger peoples, Turkey simply invaded Cyprus and made no bones about their intentions and simply moved, by various methods, the Greeks out.
I do not, have not and will not support Israel's actions on the West Bank, neither do many Israelis, did you check Wiki for Cyprus and Tibet as well Min?
I agree that Israel is simply making trouble for the future, I suspect that their intentions is to use a return of those lands as a bargaining point in any future peace deal.
But if you Wiki the others as I have suggested I think you will have to agree that Israel is no worse than they are.
BTW Min did you read the heading about neutrality? No mention of how the situation arose with so many Russians on Georgian soil. If that report was accurate then more states would have recognised Russia's claims, neither your country nor any western democracy has sided with them you'll notice, not even China I might add.
Roy.
Re: A Really Good Discussion
Posted: Sat Jul 17, 2010 5:50 pm
by Minimalist
I have since checked out Cyprus...
In the spring of 1974, Cypriot intelligence discovered that EOKA-B was planning a coup against President Makarios[25] which was sponsored by the military junta of Athens.
The junta had come to power in a military coup in 1967 which was condemned by the whole of Europe but had the support of the United States. In the autumn of 1973 after the 17 November student uprising there had been a further coup in Athens in which the original Greek junta had been replaced by one still more obscurantist headed by the Chief of Military Police, Brigadier Ioannides, though the actual head of state was General Phaedon Gizikis.
On 2 July 1974, Makarios wrote an open letter to President Gizikis complaining bluntly that 'cadres of the Greek military regime support and direct the activities of the 'EOKA-B' terrorist organization'. The Greek Government's immediate reply was to order the go-ahead to the conspiracy. On 15 July 1974 sections of the Cypriot National Guard, led by its Greek officers, overthrew the Government.
Makarios narrowly escaped death in the attack. He fled the presidential palace by catching a taxi after escorting a party of school children out of the building and went to Pafos, where the British managed to retrieve him and flew him out of the country in an RAF fighter jet.
In the meantime, Nikos Sampson was declared provisional president of the new government. 'Had Turkey not intervened,' Sampson told the Greek newspaper, Eleftherotipia, on 26.02.81, 'I would not only have proclaimed Enosis but I would have annihilated the Turks in Cyprus as well.'[26]
From Wiki
I do sort of recall much of that. "The junta had come to power in a military coup in 1967 which was condemned by the whole of Europe but had the support of the United States."
We seem to like military coups!
I submit that the Turks pushing the Greeks out is the opposite of what the Israelis are doing. The Turks made sure to separate the two sides. The Israelis are forcing them together. I agree that no good can come from that but I do not think it is for a bargaining chip. I think it is intended to preclude the possibility of withdrawal which, btw, is what the Palestinians think. I think we both know that if a Jewish enclave was left behind the lines in a peace settlement the IDF would be on standby as soon as they called for help.
I'll get to Tibet tomorrow. Been a busy day.
Re: A Really Good Discussion
Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2010 4:09 am
by Digit
Military coup, take over by minority or majority, what ever, the end result is that people are forcibly removed from their homes, 'ethic cleansing' is it not Min?
I doubt that the finer points seem relevant to the victims, a wrong is a wrong IMO.
This might save you some time Min...
http://www.tibet.org/Activism/Rights/poptransfer.html
...Russification is alive and well it seems!
Roy.
Re: A Really Good Discussion
Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2010 6:26 am
by uniface
Getting back to the point, Cyrus Gordon cheerfully admitted that his excavations had been financed by wealthy dowagers who expected that they would unearth evidence of the literal truth of the Biblical accounts. And they were certainly popularised that way. You have to offer people at least the prospect of what interests them -- of what they want.
Re: A Really Good Discussion
Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2010 7:20 am
by Digit
who expected that they would unearth evidence of the literal truth of the Biblical accounts
Are you trying to give Min a heart attack Uni?
Roy.
Re: A Really Good Discussion
Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2010 6:39 pm
by Minimalist
uniface wrote:Getting back to the point, Cyrus Gordon cheerfully admitted that his excavations had been financed by wealthy dowagers who expected that they would unearth evidence of the literal truth of the Biblical accounts. And they were certainly popularised that way. You have to offer people at least the prospect of what interests them -- of what they want.
Of course, we have secular archaeologists who don't do that any more....much to the consternation of the bible-thumpers. People like the late, un-lamented Arch find that intolerable!
Dig, I agree about the ethnic cleansing but at least the Turks were making sure that there would not be continuous fighting within their own area. The Israelis are doing the opposite. They are guaranteeing it.
Re: A Really Good Discussion
Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 3:50 pm
by Barracuda
In the meantime, Nikos Sampson was declared provisional president of the new government. 'Had Turkey not intervened,' Sampson told the Greek newspaper, Eleftherotipia, on 26.02.81, 'I
would not only have proclaimed Enosis but I would have annihilated the Turks in Cyprus as well.'[26]
Wow! I never read that before! Makes the Turkish invasion seems justifiable. The actual violence was short lived. If you read the local English lanuage newspaper, it seems to have settled down to snide remarks from both sides!