Archaeologica.org

Because they can't boat

Which by inference means that hominds didn't walk to Oz does it not?
Any land bridge that hominds can traverse can be traversed by other species, is that not so?

And those cracks widen over time (even if that time is only a split second).

Collisions result in cracks! Like the Himalayas you mean, or the Andes for example?

No, I'm not a geologist. So I've got something better: logic.

You stick to your logic I'll stick with what the geos tell us, ie, no land bridges.

Roy.

RS, you cannot ignore geological facts and maintain the integrity of your arguments. Wallace's Line vis a vis Australia and other locales is real and means that fauna could not traverse the line during the Pleistocene. You will not fine one geologist on the planet who thinks otherwise.



Australia is a classic example of humans colonizing a continent circa 50-60kya. To do so requires a minimum amount of people crossing the deep Sunda channel, something requiring rafts or boats. According to John Moore at the Univ. of Florida the minimum amount of people required to colonize Australia in one pulse would have been about 150 with 15 breeding couples inclusive. See: https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid= ... 815g&pli=1

In addition to Australia's maritime colonization, the recent find of a finger bone at Callao Cave on the island of Luzon dated to 67kya is further evidence of marine crossings since Luzon was not connected to the mainland either. See: http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn1 ... pines.html

I await RS's reply with interest Cog!

Roy.

PS Cog, on your sublect I read a report on Sky net news the other day that the cloning of animals spreads diseases, I despair!

Digit wrote:

Because they can't boat

Which by inference means that hominds didn't walk to Oz does it not?

Indeed, it does not. On their 100,000 kilometer trek from Africa to Oz hominids crossed countless brooks, rivers, and straits. But the brooks, rivers, and straits they crossed accounted for maybe 200 km max of the whole route. The other 99,800 kilometers of the trip were ON FOOT. I call that "walking to Oz".

Any land bridge that hominds can traverse can be traversed by other species, is that not so?

Yes, but any fast flowing, deep strait can only be crossed by intelligent fauna on a floatation device: hominids. Mind you: every boat is a floatation device, but not every floatation device is a boat. Just like every cow is a mammal, but not every mammal is a cow. With a floatation device you can cross a channel, strait, or river. It takes a navigable boat, however, to willfully steer a course across an open sea to a particular destination. So there's quite a difference between a "boat" and a floatation device.

However, the proto-Abos probably trekked through Malacca and Indonesia to Papua and Oz between 100,000 and 50,000 YBP. Navigable boating probably developed around 1,000,000 YBP. So it is not impossible that the proto-Abos knew about boating. But is also far from certain. After all, we – today – have PCs and the internet, but I bet you most Papuas, Amazon indians, or Siberian Inuit – also today – wouldn't know what to do with it if it hit them.

And those cracks widen over time (even if that time is only a split second).

Collisions result in cracks! Like the Himalayas you mean, or the Andes for example?

No, cracks are a.k.a. fissures. like the Wallace, Weber, and Lydekker Lines.
The Himalayas and Andes are crumpled UP parts of the Asian and South American continental plates, rammed by the Indian and south Pacific continental plates. I.o.w. the contrary of fissures.

No, I'm not a geologist. So I've got something better: logic.

You stick to your logic I'll stick with what the geos tell us, ie, no land bridges.

Fine by me.
But my gut tells me that you won't be able to let sleeping dogs lie.

Because they can't boat

But they can walk...which was,I thought, your point.

Minimalist wrote:

Because they can't boat

But they can walk...which was,I thought, your point.

Wading is also walking. Hominids will and can use wading to cover distances. They wade for miles to get from A to B, while other fauna generally stay within a couple dozen metres of dry land.

Consequently the only puzzle for me is the elephants. Elephant groups can swim well and can cover considerable distances. They can easily outswim humans and can e.g. cover the distance between Bali and Lombok, which is 35 km (and was probably half that, 70,000 YBP), which human social groups definitely cannot. Yet the elephants didn't. Why?

"Well, what about hippopotamusses then", you'll say. Hippos aren't fazed by a bit of water. To the contrary: they love the stuff. So that's why there aren't any in Indonesia: they've all gone swimming!

But my gut tells me that you won't be able to let sleeping dogs lie.

You should listen to your gut, it's making more sense than you are RS. When continental plates collide they do not make fissures, they occur where plates move apart, but like you said, you are no geo.
Locic says that the sea bed to the north of Oz will rise due to colliding plates not fall.
You are lone voice crying in the wilderness and ignoring common sense.

Roy.

Digit wrote:

But my gut tells me that you won't be able to let sleeping dogs lie.

You should listen to your gut, it's making more sense than you are RS. When continental plates collide they do not make fissures, they occur where plates move apart, but like you said, you are no geo.

Are you?

Locic says that the sea bed to the north of Oz will rise due to colliding plates not fall.
You are lone voice crying in the wilderness and ignoring common sense.

No, logic says that the massive amounts of energy produced from colliding plates must be dissipated. But that energy dissipation can take more than one form. In northern India and South America it had nowhere to go so it pushed the crust UP, and bingo: the Himalayas and the Andes*!
In Indonesia the Indian Ocean plate/Oz plate are ducking UNDER the SE Asian plate, and the energy dissipation is, literally, through 'venting' it! And there is a row of hundreds of venting openings, a.k.a. volcanoes, doing the venting. And a fissure here and there.

Here's a nice illustration of what goes on night and day, year in year out, for aeons. And 80% of that we'll never even see:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmMlspNoZMs

*the Andes have lots of volcanoes too, of course. There both energy dissipation scenarios got/are enacted.

Cognito wrote:Luzon was not connected to the mainland

This map says otherwise. The light brown area is the SE Asian continental plate: max 200 metres under current sea levels, but on average about 30 to 50 metres under current sea levels. During the ice ages sea levels were 120 metres lower than today, so 95% of that light brown area was dry land. I.o.w. perfectly traversable ON FOOT.

Who says the plates are colliding? As I understand the situation Oz is moving NE and scraping along the Asian plate, just as California is doing, which does not form a subduction zone or deep trenches. There is no deep trench where England has collided with Scotland, or where Africa has hit Europe and none where India has hit Asia.
Mountains, yes, quakes, yes, volcanoes, yes, trenches, nil!
No I am not a geo, therefore I listen to those who are and do not claim to be superior in knowledge to them.
Plates have three distinct methods of meeting, one they rear up, as India-Asia, duck under as in the Marianas trench or slide past each other.
And in any case as Min pointed out floating, rafting etc is not walking, you can't keep on facing both ways nor ignoring the evidence nor the opinions of geologists. There is at least a faint chance that they are right and that you are wrong.

http://www.platetectonics.com/oceanfloo ... ralian.asp

as you can read here the sea floor north of Oz is rising, if you accept what geos state of course.

Roy.

Wading is also walking.

But if the water is more than 6 feet deep it is also drowning.

Minimalist wrote:

Wading is also walking.

But if the water is more than 6 feet deep it is also drowning.

So people with common sense wait for the tide to go out.
But desert dwellers wouldn't know about tides, now would they?

Hehe, i thought they were called monsoons where you are Min.

That would be one hell of a tide.

This map says otherwise. The light brown area is the SE Asian continental plate: max 200 metres under current sea levels, but on average about 30 to 50 metres under current sea levels. During the ice ages sea levels were 120 metres lower than today, so 95% of that light brown area was dry land. I.o.w. perfectly traversable ON FOOT.

RS, the resolution on the map you provided is inconclusive since the light brown region, by your own admission, varies from 30 to 200 meters below sea level. Since the maximum sea level drop at the LGM was 120 meters, there were still areas under 80 meters of water on your map. Regardless, Luzon was still an island at that time. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecoregions ... hilippines

Quote: "The lack of a land bridge to the Asian continent prevented most of the Asian megafauna, including elephants, rhinoceros, tapirs, tigers, leopards, and gibbons, from reaching the Philippines, although they do inhabit the adjacent Indonesian islands of Sundaland, which were formerly linked to the Asian continent by lowered sea levels."

That's what the Wallace Line is all about, but you seem to be stubbornly missing the point. Getting to the Phillipines during the LGM still required a sea crossing.