She probably hasn't seen this accessorizing bowerbird http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1zmfTr2d4c or this accessorizing hermit crab http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Q5PQ4aHpLM.Minimalist wrote:As my wife jokingly says "what separates us from the animals is our ability to accessorize."
Hi - Question Regarding to the Oldest Art
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Re: Hi - Question Regarding to the Oldest Art
Re: Hi - Question Regarding to the Oldest Art
Beads signify , they can be apotropaic i.e. protection from evil , heraldic i.e. signifying marriage , seniority ,economic and any social status important for the wearer and observers . They have to be drilled , smaller beads , requiring greater drilling skill and those brought from greater distances presumably of greater status .The end result is a non-utilitarian symbolic object which required time and a combination of skills and imagination to produce plus the requirement of access to the culture of the signifier and signified to understand . That understanding , in turn , requires the form of symbolism that is language which would also have been necessary for sea crossings and burials .Rokcet Scientist wrote: That is salient to you (and to me too, BTW), but the OP's question pertained to human/hominid artistic expressions. And beads and (body) make-up are artistic expressions as well as modes of communication (yet another case of and/and, instead of either/or). Exactly like they can be today. But to assume that beads and (body) make-up also "imply sophisticated language capabilities" is a bridge too far for me. After all thousands of different animals' territorial and mating behaviors ooze with "symbolic meaning", but they cannot really be accused of "sophisticated language capabilities", can they? (Let alone of art!).
George
Re: Hi - Question Regarding to the Oldest Art
Only sea crossings and burials started at least 2 million years after beads appeared. So the connection with beads seems more in your mind than in reality, George.Tiompan wrote:Beads signify , they can be apotropaic i.e. protection from evil , heraldic i.e. signifying marriage , seniority ,economic and any social status important for the wearer and observers . They have to be drilled , smaller beads , requiring greater drilling skill and those brought from greater distances presumably of greater status .The end result is a non-utilitarian symbolic object which required time and a combination of skills and imagination to produce plus the requirement of access to the culture of the signifier and signified to understand . That understanding , in turn , requires the form of symbolism that is language which would also have been necessary for sea crossings and burials.
Re: Hi - Question Regarding to the Oldest Art
I hate to say it RS but either you or I have misunderstood that comment as, if I have understood it correctly, George is pointing out that the same requirements for sea crossings etc are those required to make beads, both in developing the techniques, passing on the technology, understanding the personal satisfaction in the manufacture and in the possession.That understanding , in turn , requires the form of symbolism that is language which would also have been necessary for sea crossings and burials.
The time scale seems irrelevant to me, particularly as sea crossings would likely have had a long history of fresh water craft before any successful sea crossings.
Roy.
First people deny a thing, then they belittle it, then they say it was known all along! Von Humboldt
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Re: Hi - Question Regarding to the Oldest Art
Rokcet Scientist wrote:She probably hasn't seen this accessorizing bowerbird http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1zmfTr2d4c or this accessorizing hermit crab http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Q5PQ4aHpLM.Minimalist wrote:As my wife jokingly says "what separates us from the animals is our ability to accessorize."
I can't sit here for 6 minutes watching a bird. What does it do?
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.
-- George Carlin
-- George Carlin
Re: Hi - Question Regarding to the Oldest Art
Accessorize...Minimalist wrote:I can't sit here for 6 minutes watching a bird. What does it do?Rokcet Scientist wrote:She probably hasn't seen this accessorizing bowerbird http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1zmfTr2d4c or this accessorizing hermit crab http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Q5PQ4aHpLM.Minimalist wrote:As my wife jokingly says "what separates us from the animals is our ability to accessorize."
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Re: Hi - Question Regarding to the Oldest Art
How?
Unless it involves a credit card and a trip to Bloomingdale's I don't think it counts.
Unless it involves a credit card and a trip to Bloomingdale's I don't think it counts.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.
-- George Carlin
-- George Carlin
Re: Hi - Question Regarding to the Oldest Art
The connection ,as Roy pointed out , had nothing to do with chronology but what I thought was obvious i.e. the requirement for language .
Beads predate sea crossings and burials by 2 millions years ? Dunno how you arrive at that .
Earliest Sea crossings 800,000-9000,000 YA
Burials :130,000 YA
Oldest secure beads we have are those from El Greifa in Libya at 200,000 YA (beads form Repolusthole in Austria may be older but they are not secure ) .
Even if you don't agree with the specifics getting in a difference of 2 million years is going to be difficult .
George
Beads predate sea crossings and burials by 2 millions years ? Dunno how you arrive at that .
Earliest Sea crossings 800,000-9000,000 YA
Burials :130,000 YA
Oldest secure beads we have are those from El Greifa in Libya at 200,000 YA (beads form Repolusthole in Austria may be older but they are not secure ) .
Even if you don't agree with the specifics getting in a difference of 2 million years is going to be difficult .
George
Re: Hi - Question Regarding to the Oldest Art
If you had read the previous posts in this thread you would have known there were handfuls of beads found, associated with hominid skeletal remains, at Sterkfontein, South Africa. The hominid remains have been dated at between 3 MYA and 2.5 MYA. Ergo: at least 2 million years before boating and burials. We can gloss over a 200,000 year gap citing dating inaccuracies. But we can't ignore a 2 million year gap.Tiompan wrote:The connection ,as Roy pointed out , had nothing to do with chronology but what I thought was obvious i.e. the requirement for language .
Beads predate sea crossings and burials by 2 millions years ? Dunno how you arrive at that .
Earliest Sea crossings 800,000-9000,000 YA
Burials :130,000 YA
Oldest secure beads we have are those from El Greifa in Libya at 200,000 YA (beads form Repolusthole in Austria may be older but they are not secure ) .
Even if you don't agree with the specifics getting in a difference of 2 million years is going to be difficult .
George
Re: Hi - Question Regarding to the Oldest Art
If I have got George's point it is this.
The cognative abilities that were required to produce beads are those same abilities that went into producing boats and the Apollo space craft, thus there is no gap.
Roy.
The cognative abilities that were required to produce beads are those same abilities that went into producing boats and the Apollo space craft, thus there is no gap.
Roy.
First people deny a thing, then they belittle it, then they say it was known all along! Von Humboldt
Re: Hi - Question Regarding to the Oldest Art
I did read the post .It was a question asked by you ": weren't there handfuls of beads associated with some 2.5 million year old hominid craniums or mandibles at Sterkfontein? The details escape me right now, but to me beads are also art. As is the application of our old friend red ochre of course."Rokcet Scientist wrote:Tiompan wrote: If you had read the previous posts in this thread you would have known there were handfuls of beads found, associated with hominid skeletal remains, at Sterkfontein, South Africa. The hominid remains have been dated at between 3 MYA and 2.5 MYA. Ergo: at least 2 million years before boating and burials. We can gloss over a 200,000 year gap citing dating inaccuracies. But we can't ignore a 2 million year gap.
Yes the hominid remains may be that age but as the question implies you didn't know about the beads . There were none , made by the hominids from 2.5 MYA .
George
Re: Hi - Question Regarding to the Oldest Art
That's commonly known as a 'rethorical question', George.Tiompan wrote:I did read the post .It was a question asked by you ": weren't there handfuls of beads associated with some 2.5 million year old hominid craniums or mandibles at Sterkfontein?"
Re: Hi - Question Regarding to the Oldest Art
And that's why there was no response . Sadly what it was implying wasn't true and this was explained in the later post RS .Rokcet Scientist wrote:That's commonly known as a 'rethorical question', George.Tiompan wrote:I did read the post .It was a question asked by you ": weren't there handfuls of beads associated with some 2.5 million year old hominid craniums or mandibles at Sterkfontein?"
George
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Re: Hi - Question Regarding to the Oldest Art
I've checked a couple of sites and not found a reference for 'beads' found at Sterkfontein. This site notes the finding of beads in Blombos cave, also in South Africa.
http://heritage-key.com/category/countr ... uth-africa
http://heritage-key.com/category/countr ... uth-africa
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.
-- George Carlin
-- George Carlin
Re: Hi - Question Regarding to the Oldest Art
"Oldest secure beads we have are those from El Greifa in Libya at 200,000 YA (beads form Repolusthole in Austria may be older but they are not secure ) ."Minimalist wrote:I've checked a couple of sites and not found a reference for 'beads' found at Sterkfontein. This site notes the finding of beads in Blombos cave, also in South Africa.
http://heritage-key.com/category/countr ... uth-africa
These are much older than Blombos .
George