Archaeologica.org

Minimalist wrote:As my wife jokingly says "what separates us from the animals is our ability to accessorize."

She probably hasn't seen this accessorizing bowerbird http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1zmfTr2d4c or this accessorizing hermit crab http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Q5PQ4aHpLM.

Rokcet Scientist wrote: That is salient to you (and to me too, BTW), but the OP's question pertained to human/hominid artistic expressions. And beads and (body) make-up are artistic expressions as well as modes of communication (yet another case of and/and, instead of either/or). Exactly like they can be today. But to assume that beads and (body) make-up also "imply sophisticated language capabilities" is a bridge too far for me. After all thousands of different animals' territorial and mating behaviors ooze with "symbolic meaning", but they cannot really be accused of "sophisticated language capabilities", can they? (Let alone of art! ).

Beads signify , they can be apotropaic i.e. protection from evil , heraldic i.e. signifying marriage , seniority ,economic and any social status important for the wearer and observers . They have to be drilled , smaller beads , requiring greater drilling skill and those brought from greater distances presumably of greater status .The end result is a non-utilitarian symbolic object which required time and a combination of skills and imagination to produce plus the requirement of access to the culture of the signifier and signified to understand . That understanding , in turn , requires the form of symbolism that is language which would also have been necessary for sea crossings and burials .

George

Tiompan wrote:Beads signify , they can be apotropaic i.e. protection from evil , heraldic i.e. signifying marriage , seniority ,economic and any social status important for the wearer and observers . They have to be drilled , smaller beads , requiring greater drilling skill and those brought from greater distances presumably of greater status .The end result is a non-utilitarian symbolic object which required time and a combination of skills and imagination to produce plus the requirement of access to the culture of the signifier and signified to understand . That understanding , in turn , requires the form of symbolism that is language which would also have been necessary for sea crossings and burials.

Only sea crossings and burials started at least 2 million years after beads appeared. So the connection with beads seems more in your mind than in reality, George.

That understanding , in turn , requires the form of symbolism that is language which would also have been necessary for sea crossings and burials.

I hate to say it RS but either you or I have misunderstood that comment as, if I have understood it correctly, George is pointing out that the same requirements for sea crossings etc are those required to make beads, both in developing the techniques, passing on the technology, understanding the personal satisfaction in the manufacture and in the possession.
The time scale seems irrelevant to me, particularly as sea crossings would likely have had a long history of fresh water craft before any successful sea crossings.

Roy.

Rokcet Scientist wrote:

Minimalist wrote:As my wife jokingly says "what separates us from the animals is our ability to accessorize."

She probably hasn't seen this accessorizing bowerbird http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1zmfTr2d4c or this accessorizing hermit crab http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Q5PQ4aHpLM.

I can't sit here for 6 minutes watching a bird. What does it do?

Minimalist wrote:

Rokcet Scientist wrote:

Minimalist wrote:As my wife jokingly says "what separates us from the animals is our ability to accessorize."

She probably hasn't seen this accessorizing bowerbird http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1zmfTr2d4c or this accessorizing hermit crab http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Q5PQ4aHpLM.

I can't sit here for 6 minutes watching a bird. What does it do?

Accessorize...

How?

Unless it involves a credit card and a trip to Bloomingdale's I don't think it counts.

The connection ,as Roy pointed out , had nothing to do with chronology but what I thought was obvious i.e. the requirement for language .

Beads predate sea crossings and burials by 2 millions years ? Dunno how you arrive at that .

Earliest Sea crossings 800,000-9000,000 YA
Burials :130,000 YA
Oldest secure beads we have are those from El Greifa in Libya at 200,000 YA (beads form Repolusthole in Austria may be older but they are not secure ) .
Even if you don't agree with the specifics getting in a difference of 2 million years is going to be difficult .
George

Tiompan wrote:The connection ,as Roy pointed out , had nothing to do with chronology but what I thought was obvious i.e. the requirement for language .

Beads predate sea crossings and burials by 2 millions years ? Dunno how you arrive at that .

Earliest Sea crossings 800,000-9000,000 YA
Burials :130,000 YA
Oldest secure beads we have are those from El Greifa in Libya at 200,000 YA (beads form Repolusthole in Austria may be older but they are not secure ) .
Even if you don't agree with the specifics getting in a difference of 2 million years is going to be difficult .
George

If you had read the previous posts in this thread you would have known there were handfuls of beads found, associated with hominid skeletal remains, at Sterkfontein, South Africa. The hominid remains have been dated at between 3 MYA and 2.5 MYA. Ergo: at least 2 million years before boating and burials. We can gloss over a 200,000 year gap citing dating inaccuracies. But we can't ignore a 2 million year gap.

If I have got George's point it is this.
The cognative abilities that were required to produce beads are those same abilities that went into producing boats and the Apollo space craft, thus there is no gap.

Roy.

Rokcet Scientist wrote:

Tiompan wrote: If you had read the previous posts in this thread you would have known there were handfuls of beads found, associated with hominid skeletal remains, at Sterkfontein, South Africa. The hominid remains have been dated at between 3 MYA and 2.5 MYA. Ergo: at least 2 million years before boating and burials. We can gloss over a 200,000 year gap citing dating inaccuracies. But we can't ignore a 2 million year gap.

I did read the post .It was a question asked by you ": weren't there handfuls of beads associated with some 2.5 million year old hominid craniums or mandibles at Sterkfontein? The details escape me right now, but to me beads are also art. As is the application of our old friend red ochre of course."

Yes the hominid remains may be that age but as the question implies you didn't know about the beads . There were none , made by the hominids from 2.5 MYA .

George

Tiompan wrote:I did read the post .It was a question asked by you ": weren't there handfuls of beads associated with some 2.5 million year old hominid craniums or mandibles at Sterkfontein?"

That's commonly known as a 'rethorical question', George.

Rokcet Scientist wrote:

Tiompan wrote:I did read the post .It was a question asked by you ": weren't there handfuls of beads associated with some 2.5 million year old hominid craniums or mandibles at Sterkfontein?"

That's commonly known as a 'rethorical question', George.

And that's why there was no response . Sadly what it was implying wasn't true and this was explained in the later post RS .

George

I've checked a couple of sites and not found a reference for 'beads' found at Sterkfontein. This site notes the finding of beads in Blombos cave, also in South Africa.


http://heritage-key.com/category/countr ... uth-africa

Minimalist wrote:I've checked a couple of sites and not found a reference for 'beads' found at Sterkfontein. This site notes the finding of beads in Blombos cave, also in South Africa.


http://heritage-key.com/category/countr ... uth-africa

"Oldest secure beads we have are those from El Greifa in Libya at 200,000 YA (beads form Repolusthole in Austria may be older but they are not secure ) ."
These are much older than Blombos .

George