New hominid variant, Denisovans, escaped the cold

[Rokcet Scientist]

Siberia is obviously not like the Arizona desert. It is extremely cold. Like minus 50ºC in the daytime, and minus 70ºC at night. And back then it was glacial max!

Yet the mammoths that thaw out there were flash-frozen : very suddenly. And still have buttercups and such in their stomachs.

Something's askew here.

No.
Besides lots of snow, one of the defining traits of Siberia, and certainly during the height of an ice age is the permafrost. Meaning that the ground is frozen solid. It is one humongous subterranean plate of solid ice. In spring/summer only the top 10 to 15 inches thaw in the sun (and becomes the biggest swamp/peatbog on the planet; and the birthplace of 63 trillion mosquitoes). That's where buttercups grow. That's where mammoths feed. Then, when one falls into a hole in the ground, a crevace or something, that it cannot get out of, it is completely surrounded by permafrost. On all sides. Thus effectively in a deep freezer. So it dies and freezes solid inside 24 hours. There's your flash-frozen mammoth.
It could still happen today. If we still had mammoths. That situation may be 'rectified' in this century when they release cloned mammoths in the tundra again...

That and very nasty weather changes.
Whence the Denisovans chucked it in and migrated to tropical climes.
I don't blame them.

Look at the prospects!
It is apparently not at all impossible that we find a deep frozen Denisovan...!
In fact almost likely. We found, or stumbled upon Oetzi, didn't we? So there must be some Denisovan icicles somewhere too!
Only to find them.
Just a matter of time.

[Digit]

Sorry to puncture your balloon again Uni but 'flash freezing' is not required to achieve such preservation.
I would also point out that these remains are found within the perma frost.

Roy.

[uniface]

Objection, Your Honor -- Bubble Buster here overlooks that the freezing process was so rapid that, like flash-frozen food, the cell walls did not rupture (a surprise I recall that was noted at the time one of the more recent intact ones was studied).

And it's permafrost NOW. (As in, not then -- when they were ambling around in meadows full of flowers).

[Rokcet Scientist]

Objection, Your Honor -- Bubble Buster here overlooks that the freezing process was so rapid that, like flash-frozen food, the cell walls did not rupture (a surprise I recall that was noted at the time one of the more recent intact ones was studied).

And it's permafrost NOW. (As in, not then -- when they were ambling around in meadows full of flowers).

Up to their ankles in the bog, more like. Inhaling 10,000 mosquitoes with every breath. And permanently dive-bombed by millions of swallows. There's a price for fresh buttercups.

[Digit]

Righty oh Uni, let's start with some sensible science instead of conspiracies etc.
You, I appreciate, are simply repeating what you have read, but too often people do this without thought, such as HSS was bow legged 'cos the researchers had no medical knowledge.
Or more recently that Venus's temp is due to CO2.
Nice stories, but so is Sleeping Beauty.
First, if someone tells me that 10 tons of meat flash froze I would ask for an explanation as to how this could happen, and better still, a demo!
It is simply not possible!
As to the lack of cell damage, certain cold adapted species have a form on anti-freeze in their blood, if IIRC the Caribou is one such.
If these animal died in the manner that you suggest, where are the corpses of the other species?
As the corpses are found in the perma frost either the ground built up over them or they sank into it. Any degree of cold that cause flash freezing would also freeze the ground, thus leaving the corpses on the surface.
If you look at the pictures of the frozen baby Mammoths the position of the limbs etc would suggest that they were alive when they hit the deck!
This may be of interest....

By 1929, the remains of only thirty-four mammoths with frozen soft tissues (skin, flesh, or organs) had been documented. Only four of them were relatively complete. Since then, about that many more have been found. In most cases, the flesh shows signs of decay before its freezing and later desiccation. Stories abound about frozen mammoth carcasses that were still edible once defrosted, but the original sources indicate the carcasses were, in fact, terribly decayed, and the stench so unbearable that only the dogs accompanying the finders, and wild scavengers, showed any interest in the flesh.

Now the reputed Buttercups is also of interest.
In the UK the various species are loathed by stock farmers, they are invasive and will take over large areas.
Why? Because grazing animal will only eat them if they are starving!
The sap is both bitter, toxic and sufficiently corrosive that it raises blisters in the mouth and intestines.
Here it is used to remove Warts!
Unless Mammoths were so adapted so as to consume them the Buttercups would suggest that the animals were desperate!
If you can offer any alternatives I would be happy to hear them.
RS's scenario is very apt in my opinion.

Roy.

[Rokcet Scientist]

it's permafrost NOW. (As in, not then -- when they were ambling around in meadows full of flowers).

So, according to you, there is permafrost now, while we have no ice age going, but there was no permafrost at the height of the last (Würm) ice age...?

Do you ever think about your arguments before you commit them to your keyboard?

[uniface]

They aren't my arguments.

They aren't even arguments.

They're File-&-Retrieve printouts of previous reading.

[Rokcet Scientist]

Nuff said.

[E.P. Grondine]

I wish I was in San Antonio for the annual right now, but it was not meant to be. It's cold as **** here in Illinois, and my home computer is down. That said:

You're all simply speculating about the Siberian environment south of the ice sheet. Why doesn't one of you look up the data?
My Russian pretty much went with my stroke, but they often speak and write in English...

The Siberian mammoths were not included in my YD data.
Sometimes I'll use a map of the distribution of mucks in powerpoint talks.

All I want to say about this is that in Ohio, it was warmer south of the ice sheet than it is today.

[kbs2244]

I don’t know if you can compare climates half a planet apart, but someone seemed to make habit of driving mammoths into bogs to kill them in the Pleistocene in Wisconsin.

http://woollymammoth.org/

[uniface]

The simple bottom line of flash-freezing (however accomplished) is that, if freezing is done quickly enough, the water in the individual cells doesn't expand and rupture the cell walls. Or so the article on the frozen mammoths said (referring to them being in splendid shape when dissected down to the microscopy level).

Seems counter-intuitive to me, but if you're old enough to remember what frozen peas were like before the F-F process, you'd acknowledge that, whatever's involved, there's quite a difference in the result.

[Digit]

I am old enough Uni.
That does not alter the fact that no such method of FF such a large anount of meat is known to us.
As I pointed out, such a cold event would have likewise killed all other animals in the locality, where are they?
Why were they eating Buttercups? How did they end up buried in the perma frost? If they died on the surface of the ground they would have to have been subsequently buried, flood, landslide etc, or as RS pointed out, fall in to marsh/water etc.
These facts may not be popular, but they need to be explained away or answered in some manner.
I have to admit that I have not seen any reliable reports that support flash freezing I might add, sorry.

Roy.

[uniface]

That does not alter the fact that no such method of FF such a large anount of meat is known to us.

And this has what bearing on whether it happened or not ?

I have not seen any reliable reports that support flash freezing

See above.

Why were they eating Buttercups?

Because they liked them, I'd suppose. They found them in their stomachs when they dissected them.

sorry

No you're not.

Gambit declined. Your opinion is just that.

The first thing you do whenever you encounter something you don't fancy is to retreat into the bookkeeping department and throw up objections based on "current knowledge" and theoretical construals of matters beyond the current ability of "science" to deal with.

Leaving out the buttercups bit, you could have said the same about heavier-than-air flight in 1902. You would have been just as correct," and it would have been just as relevant.

[Digit]

And this has what bearing on whether it happened or not ?

Totally! Either it happened or it didn't. If it it did then there is a gap in our knowledge that I would wish to see researched.

I have not seen any reliable reports that support flash freezing


See above.

Neither have I seen any reliable reports about flying Pigs, have you? and would that influence your acceptance of their existance or not?

Why were they eating Buttercups?

Because they liked them, I'd suppose. They found them in their stomachs when they dissected them.

True, that is a supposition, again unsupported by general observation of other herbivores.

sorry


No you're not.

How are the thought reading lessons progressing BTW?

The first thing you do whenever you encounter something you don't fancy is to retreat into the bookkeeping department and throw up objections based on "current knowledge" and theoretical construals of matters beyond the current ability of "science" to deal with.

Correct, 'cos I don't believe in Santa Clause either whereas you seem prepared to accept just about any tale that takes your fancy.

theoretical construals of matters beyond the current ability of "science" to deal with.

Such as?

Leaving out the buttercups bit, you could have said the same about heavier-than-air flight in 1902. You would have been just as correct," and it would have been just as relevant.

Incorrect because it was an event that had been forecast by the science that you so detest and was awaiting only the development of a suitable power plant.
But by blindly accepting such daft ideas as Hebrew Slaves Built the Pyramids, or Nuclear War In Ancient India without any proof you do neither science nor your own standing any service what so ever.

Science explains things, blind acceptance of fairy stories does not, thus I prefer science.

Roy.

[uniface]

And the last word is -- once again -- Digit's !

Keep up the good work, and congradulations on a job well done !