Archaeologica.org

kbs2244 wrote: So we have evidence on both sides of the argument!

Jonb suggested a possible utilitarian purpose for the markings but I haven't seen any evidence to suggest that the blombos cave ochre is anything other than what we have always believed .
Ochre has been used for millenia in many parts of the world , there is no reason that it shouldn't be engraved upon , yet there are few examples .
If particular markings were effective then we might expect to have found some more .
As it is the markings on the ochre are also found all over the world from the Upper Paleolithic to the present day but not in circumstances
where the suggested utilitarian purpose would be possible i.e. on walls , ceramics and even of similar sized
portable pieces of much harder rock that would not have been used for the same purpose .

George

If particular markings were effective then we might expect to have found some more .

Yes, but it is also true that tools wear out. When no longer useful they are discarded.

If most archaeologists had to tan a skin for clothing, they'd freeze.

Minimalist wrote:

If particular markings were effective then we might expect to have found some more .

Yes, but it is also true that tools wear out. When no longer useful they are discarded.

There is no evidence for either the Blombos ochre being used for the purpose Jonb suggests or even that is was used for tanning ,
both suggestions are simply possibilities .If the Blombos examples were tools used for tanning they would not be rubbed on to the animal
skins but prepared by extracting the powder by grinding onto or with a harder stone making any markings superfluous , although it needn't
exclude the ground pieces from being marked .
If it was used as was suggested by Jonb , then is it a worn out , half used or yet to be used example ?
Which ever it may have been as the use of ochre was ubiquitous we would expect to find more examples ,
tools are found at all stages of use from proto – unused - used - -discarded and all stages in between .
George

You know George, its really kind of pathetic the amount of archaeological work that has been done at red ochre deposits.

E.P. Grondine wrote:If most archaeologists had to tan a skin for clothing, they'd freeze.

E.P. Grondine wrote:You know George, its really kind of pathetic the amount of archaeological work that has been done at red ochre deposits.

There has been some provenacing of sources in Australia and America .
It's pretty common and some of the the quarry/mine sites are known .
We also have the accounts from ethnography .
What do you suggest might be worth the extra effort /money ?

George

Tiompan wrote: There has been some proveniencing of sources in Australia and America.
It's pretty common and some of the the quarry/mine sites are known.
We also have the accounts from ethnography .
What do you suggest might be worth the extra effort /money ?

George

Hi George -

I''ve never seen the work for the Americas, and do not even know the labs involved.

That's for Red Paint, Red Ochre, Canadian Maritime Archaic, Archaic and Adena material cultures.

I know of no work done at the sources on camp sites, or mining techniques used.

Where that work fits into the grand order of things I do not know.

My own site priorities are impact areas, including a Holocene Impact Event crater, and they are an immediate high priority, right now work.

Aside from that, there are sites I do not publicize, as they are either not protected, or closed to the public at large.

I am angry at the burning of the libraries of Timbuktu. Since it appears that the only thing which will stop those people is their death, sadly someone has some nasty work to do, and I wish them the best of success with it, along with smoke and prayers.

I am angry at the burning of the libraries of Timbuktu.

Me too, E.P.

In fact, this is the kind of thing that makes me think the Brits should keep the Elgin Marbles.

From todays news page.
But then, maybe not so bad after all.

http://www.tombouctoumanuscripts.org/bl ... tu_update/

This reminds me of a story that I read and cannot since find about Baghdad.
It was a dispatch from an embedded reporter with a lead squad running to the museum.
Anticipating the US success and possible looting in the chaos following,
the custodians put most of the museum treasures in sub basements with water proof doors and then flooded the basements.
The looters were defeated.

For whatever reason, I have not seen a story confirming this action.

Hi KB -

I think that the Oriental Institute had and has some specialists in Iraq archaeology following the events at that time and the later looting of sites.

I saw that report on the Timbuktu libraries posted here, so it looks like the damage is not as bad as feared, but we'll see.

The burning makes absolutely no sense, even under sharia law, as these were Islamic works by Islamic scholars. I suppose if the damage is very slight, the vandals may be subjected to a very severe public flogging instead of death, but damned if I want them loose above ground to try this again.

Vandalism is almost by definition senseless destruction. I'll bet those same vandals would have been red-faced with rage had someone burned one of their korans.

It's a long url so easier to mention the title ."Hematite sources and archaeological ochres from Hohokam and O’odham sites in central Arizona: an experiment in type identification and characterization " a google will produce the paper .
As ochre is common and relatively easily extracted and transported it may not have the same importance as the quarrying sites for axes or megaliths , either for the quarriers or archaeos .


George

I am sorry it has taken me so much time to get back to this subject after starting it I have CFS and intermitantly that forces me to sit back and not get involved with things for a time, which is also why I can't properly show my idea.

To answer some of the things put forward on this thread. It was stated that the ochre had been rubbed before the pattern was inscribed into it. However from what I read the lines cut into the ochre show signs that they had been worn away and then new lines had been inscribed if you look at the image at the top you can see old faint lines.This then only points more strongly to the stone being used for some purpose, as what usage of a picture is there that would rub it away?

Secondly the lines on the ochre seem to me to be what is important to its creator, which is very different from the way in which a child draws, as in children's drawings the lines are used to define the area within. for instance a badly drawn circle you will be told by a toddler is uncle Fred (the line is used to define Uncle Fred. If you look at the ochre the triangles are all over the place, but the incisions are regular and of defined angles which looks to me like the creator of the object saw the lines as the important feature of the object not the triangles which are defined by it, as such this to me depicts a very different intention than that of a child's drawing.

If we look at examples of so called primitive art there is almost never a quality of sketchiness to it, the lines are almost always precise and very carefully drawn. Although it would be stupid to make a solid inference of an image of 90,000 years ago as being of a similar culture as undeveloped societies today, maybe there is something in the way we humans look at things and react to them that would produce similar outcomes. As such the sketchy quality of the Blombos ochre makes me draw away from the conclusion that it has as a primary purpose that of being an image.

If there is a difference between artists and academics, maybe it is in the training, in that academics need precise definitions and categories to get consistent results, where as creatively, I am looking for connections and juxtapositions to create novel effects, but maybe that means we are all in the same game just at opposite ends.


Also, I have not found a similar patterns from latter periods, Could you please point me in the direction of these similar images?