Is it "curating" or simply good old hoarding ...

[stan]

What is OP?
and what was the JP Morgan reference?
Thanks.

[ed]

What is OP?
and what was the JP Morgan reference?
Thanks.

Opening Post ... ie the first one

JP is in the OP

[Minimalist]

Seeing as how the V.P. is such a V.I.P. shouldn't we keep the P.C. on the Q.T. 'cause if it leaks to the V.C. he could become a M.I.A. and then we'd all be put out on K.P.
-- Robin Williams, Good Morning Vietnam

[ed]

There are a lot of people (collectors who) still see artifacts as trophies or "possessions" to be shown off to their pals at cocktail parties.

I collect and I do However, and this is an important point: what I own is known and if someone wanted a look it would be ok. Frankly, I curate my stuff better than it would be if stored in a vault somewhere.

They are driving the vast amount of looting that is going on all over the world these days.

I take issue with this contention. If Abdul, the turnip farmer, finds a snappy carving he often is faced with a trilemma. He can turn it over to the Elbonian Government for bupkus and maybe have to answer some "questions" and maybe wait till the authorities can survey his turnip patch OR he can get $72, which is about 20 years wages, from a crook OR he can rebury the damn thing. I suggest that our understanding is being impeded by stupid governments. If it is yet another carving of Elbow IV, an early Elbonian King, why not image the damn thing, either buy it (for a fair price) or let Abdul sell it? Unless, of course, the resident archeologists want moremoremoremoremore.

I think that the default position should be that the experts should have to make a case for an acquisition. Having to pay sharpens the thought processes.

I suppose these people will still be around for a long time to come. DId you see the article about Hecht in today's archaeologica news?

I will check.

i raised the thought question a few months ago, if we could dig up all the good stuff in the world, all the evidence of past civilizations, art and so on, wherethe heck would we put it? and my answer was that we would need a whole nother planet to put it on!

I worked in an area that generated data. Lots of data. As technology advanced, even more data was generated ... thousands of terrabytes. At first, clients wanted more and more. Eventually they came to the realization that it is the role of people in my business to make sense of all of that data so you actually have understanding. Bits and bytes just recapitulate history, endless objects without a framewoirk is a vain attempt to reproduce societies and that, per se, does not give us understanding.

Maybe some of it should just stay in the ground until we have a really good reason for digging it up.

Nah, sell it. Use the bucks to fund important stuff. I would pay for a real government authenticated arrowhead from the battle of Hattin. How many do the Isreali's need to know that whoosieface whupped Crusader ass? Maybe selling some off would pay for a comprehensive magnitomiter study so we could be sure of exactly what happened that day. That would beat hell out of 50,000 trays of rusty points.

It should stay in its country of origin or at least remain in the ownership of said country

.

Why? This cultural treasure stuff sorta strikes me as silly (and dangerous). Are you familiar with UNIDROIT?

Welcome to the forum, ed. You raise some good questions.
And --hey-- I ain't gonna correct your spelling!

Thank you. My spelling sucks cuz I type too fast. Aslo, my spelling just sucks

I resided at a few sceptic places previously. Old stuff is an interest.

[Minimalist]

He can turn it over to the Elbonian Government

Another fan, perchance?

[ed]

Seeing as how the V.P. is such a V.I.P. shouldn't we keep the P.C. on the Q.T. 'cause if it leaks to the V.C. he could become a M.I.A. and then we'd all be put out on K.P.
-- Robin Williams, Good Morning Vietnam

I couldn't remember the reference, good catch.

Usually I reference Python.

[ed]

He can turn it over to the Elbonian Government

Another fan, perchance?

Every single day.

Funniest was the one where the pointy haired boss says "the Elbonians have great technology" or something like that ... next panel one Elbonian is typing on a keyboad and the other has a box over his head with a cut out for the face. He says "tomorrow you be the computer"

Can I tell a story or what?

[Minimalist]

Me, too. Dilbert, Doonesbury and Non Sequitur every day....virtually the only thing I do religiously.

The Bungee Boss was my all time favorite.

[Guest]

in thinking of this topic, i am sure if the larger and more international museums returned artifacts to the originating countries, then they would clear space for those items needed storing.

then local museums may need to get together and rent/lease storage space from the myriads of empty warehouses that are in each major city and store items in those refurbished units. sharing means splitting the costs as well or, i am sure their are smaller universities that would love to have displays etc.

why even consider dumping when there are many options available?

i don't see anything wrong with selling to collectors or trophy hunters either. how much of the past can we use anyways?

[ed]

in thinking of this topic, i am sure if the larger and more international museums returned artifacts to the originating countries, then they would clear space for those items needed storing.

then local museums may need to get together and rent/lease storage space from the myriads of empty warehouses that are in each major city and store items in those refurbished units. sharing means splitting the costs as well or, i am sure their are smaller universities that would love to have displays etc.

why even consider dumping when there are many options available?

i don't see anything wrong with selling to collectors or trophy hunters either. how much of the past can we use anyways?

You know, if we here in the US returned everything that did not have a rock solid provanence we could have skate boarding competitions in the long, long halls of our museums. Except for the delightful Zuni Fetish Dolls, we could keep those. Errrr ... maybe not.

[Guest]

You know, if we here in the US returned everything that did not have a rock solid provanence we could have skate boarding competitions in the long, long halls of our museums

then don't complain.

[Frank Harrist]

Storage and curation of artifacts has ever been a problem. Archaeology is a field which is sorely under-funded. Most of the funds they do manage to obtain are spent on excavation and research with very little left over for curation and storage facilities. I long ago suggested selling off surplus to fund other archaeological projects. I was shouted down by some and others thought it was a good idea. My opinion is that if artifacts with documentation are readily available at reasonable prices the incidents of looting would decrease. Of course collectors would still do it because lets face it, digging it up for free and knowing yourself where it came from is cheaper and more exciting than buying from anywhere. However, if the market was flooded with "legal" artifacts, the illicit trade would suffer. The money made from such endeavors could be used for excavation, research, and proper curation facilities.
On the subject of leaving things buried, it is common practice among archaeologists, at least the ones I've worked with, to only excavate a portion of each site and leave the rest for future technologies. The new non-invasive type of geo-physical survey is becoming quite popular and is very useful. As these technologies become more refined and more affordable, less archaeology will be destroyed, for as you probably know, archaeology is a destructive practice. Thus, leaving things buried is a good idea as long as the site is in no danger from developers or looters or erosion or anything else which might destroy it.

[Frank Harrist]

Storage and curation of artifacts has ever been a problem. Archaeology is a field which is sorely under-funded. Most of the funds they do manage to obtain are spent on excavation and research with very little left over for curation and storage facilities. I long ago suggested selling off surplus to fund other archaeological projects. I was shouted down by some and others thought it was a good idea. My opinion is that if artifacts with documentation are readily available at reasonable prices the incidents of looting would decrease. Of course collectors would still do it because lets face it, digging it up for free and knowing yourself where it came from is cheaper and more exciting than buying from anywhere. However, if the market was flooded with "legal" artifacts, the illicit trade would suffer. The money made from such endeavors could be used for excavation, research, and proper curation facilities.
On the subject of leaving things buried, it is common practice among archaeologists, at least the ones I've worked with, to only excavate a portion of each site and leave the rest for future technologies. The new non-invasive type of geo-physical survey is becoming quite popular and is very useful. As these technologies become more refined and more affordable, less archaeology will be destroyed, for as you probably know, archaeology is a destructive practice. Thus, leaving things buried is a good idea as long as the site is in no danger from developers or looters or erosion or anything else which might destroy it.

[Guest]

it is common practice among archaeologists, at least the ones I've worked with, to only excavate a portion of each site and leave the rest for future technologies

this has been done for some time now but it sparks the question: what information is being left buried and what answers are being missed?

i am one of those who feels that a complete excavation is the only way to get complete information and more answers. leaving items and texts buried can possibly lead many to form wrong or isleading conclusions.

I long ago suggested selling off surplus to fund other archaeological projects. I was shouted down by some and others thought it was a good idea. My opinion is that if artifacts with documentation are readily available at reasonable prices the incidents of looting would decrease

though i can agree with the selling of some artifacts, i don't agree that looting would decrease that much. it might hurt their profit margin which inturn may lead to more looting to make up the shortfall but that is a wait and see situation.

[Frank Harrist]

it is common practice among archaeologists, at least the ones I've worked with, to only excavate a portion of each site and leave the rest for future technologies

this has been done for some time now but it sparks the question: what information is being left buried and what answers are being missed?

i am one of those who feels that a complete excavation is the only way to get complete information and more answers. leaving items and texts buried can possibly lead many to form wrong or isleading conclusions.

I long ago suggested selling off surplus to fund other archaeological projects. I was shouted down by some and others thought it was a good idea. My opinion is that if artifacts with documentation are readily available at reasonable prices the incidents of looting would decrease

though i can agree with the selling of some artifacts, i don't agree that looting would decrease that much. it might hurt their profit margin which inturn may lead to more looting to make up the shortfall but that is a wait and see situation.

Yes, arch, but excavation destroys evidence and future technologies will be better able to find the evidence without as much destruction. Much can be missed by using todays methods as opposed to less invasive, less destructive methods. As long as it's still buried it ain't going anywhere. They don't leave a site partially excavated with no intentions of ever returning. Funding also has a little to do with it and also the length of the digging season sometimes.
As for the looting, I doubt it would increase if it were less profitable. The money made would be great for the field of archaeology. Lets face it, looting is gonna happen anyway.