Syro-Palestinian Archaeology

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Ishtar
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Post by Ishtar »

Minimalist wrote:Davies, et al, suggest that the canonization of the various works which now comprise the OT took place as a reaction to the ideas of the Greeks which were pouring through the area in an almost unstoppable wave. He seems to see it as a necessary step to support the Maccabaean revolt against Antiochus by giving the Jews their own doctrine to fight for...one which had a long history in the area.
It certainly looks like something put together in a hurry. Seems they didn't even time to hire an editor to go through to look for inconsistencies and double ups! :lol:
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Post by kbs2244 »

Min:
It just doesn’t matter how literate the common people were.
The stated job of the priests was to read and explain to the “illiterate” common man the meaning of the “Law.”
Just because you cannot read or write doesn’t mean you are incapable of advanced thinking of the metaphysical kind.
And in this time frame we have plenty of written languages available, whatever they may be.
There is no doubt, even if your only source is the accepted OT, that there was a whole lot of pushing and shoving going on in “Israel” as far as belief systems in this time frame.
If you read between the lines, there was a huge centralization of both political and religious power when David became King and Solomon built the Temple as a central worship site.
Until then there was a lot of local “Holy Places” where a local Priest would perform the needed sacrifices, observe the “festivals” etc.
So, in that time frame, the nation went from a decentralized system of “Judges” for local law enforcement and political power and local Priests for worship to a centralized establishment.
And my whole point is that much of the OT writings are anti-establishment. Because the establishment had become corrupt.
Even if Davies is right in his concept of the need for the creation of the Hebrew Cannon, it doesn’t mean what was in it was inaccurate
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Post by Minimalist »

It just doesn’t matter how literate the common people were.

It doesn't matter because they did not count.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

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Post by kbs2244 »

Wow
Nothing personal here, but isn't that a pretty elitist altitude?
Leaders are not much without somebody to lead.
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Post by Minimalist »

Of course it is an elitist attitude....they were elitist times. Do you think anybody gave two shits about the commoners? Seriously, their job was to farm the land and do what they were told. As long as they did not get out of line, the nobility left them alone, if oppression can be considered leaving "alone."

When did that attitude die out in the West? The French Revolution? It wasn't all that long ago.

Do you know what happened to the peasantry when their country was conquered? Nothing. The new masters came in and replaced the guys they had just defeated and the peasants kept working the land....if they knew what was good for them.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin
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Post by kbs2244 »

Min:
You are right in a general sense. Through out human history some one has said “I am better than you. I will be your leader. Follow Me.” Then, when they get old, the say “Follow my son (or daughter.) They will lead you as I did. And pretty soon we have a 2 level society.

But everybody seems to agree that the Levant in the time period of the early Israelites doesn’t seem to be under that kind of control. Especially in the highlands. It was a sparsely settled area shared by nomadic family groups with no central government or religion.

Then, if you take the OT for a history book, the ever increasing Israelite population wanted to imitate their neighbors. They were not happy about not having a royal family, a standing army, a big temple, to brag about.

Over his objections, they had Samuel find them someone to be their king. The first one, Saul, didn’t work out too well, so Samuel later found David, and off we go.

Like most centralized governments, the attitude you describe came into place. Both politically and religiously. But, even with a central temple to care for, the main purpose of the priesthood was still to teach and explain to law to the common populace. To keep that local, close to the people attitude, at the start there was only one priestly family at the temple for performing the various ceremonies. And that family rotated yearly, so there would not be a inherited privileged class.

As time went on, these carefully crafted safeguards began to be ignored. By the time they had spent their captivity in Babylon and picked up some of that culture, we can be sure the concept of “us and them” was pretty well established.

And that is what makes this seal they have just found so important. It is physical evidence of what Malachi was complaining about. A strong, but religiously corrupt, pagan influenced, priestly bureaucracy that was not teaching or leading the people correctly.
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Post by Digit »

Through out human history some one has said “I am better than you. I will be your leader. Follow Me.” Then, when they get old, the say “Follow my son (or daughter.) They will lead you as I did.
And now we have democracy so that more than one idiot decides who will play leader this week. :(
First people deny a thing, then they belittle it, then they say it was known all along! Von Humboldt
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Post by kbs2244 »

Damn those French!
If only they hadn't had that Revolution.
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Post by Ishtar »

kbs2244 wrote:Min:

And that is what makes this seal they have just found so important. It is physical evidence of what Malachi was complaining about. A strong, but religiously corrupt, pagan influenced, priestly bureaucracy that was not teaching or leading the people correctly.
I just want to make the point that pagans are not necessarily corrupt, or more corrupt than anyone else.

It's only Judaeo-Christians who think they are corrupt (purely because they are not Judaeo-Christian) and so to say that pagans are corrupt solely by virtue of the fact that they are pagan is not based on any scholarship but is a religous comment based on prejudice.
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Post by Minimalist »

But everybody seems to agree that the Levant in the time period of the early Israelites doesn’t seem to be under that kind of control. Especially in the highlands. It was a sparsely settled area shared by nomadic family groups with no central government or religion.

This is a very complex issue, kb, mainly because of the bible story which vastly oversimplifies what was going on. The reason for the oversimplification is that it is NOT a history book. It is a morality play and the incidents it cites are meant to reinforce object lessons.

The archaeology of the region shows that "Israel" and "Judah" (and I'll use the names which are conventionally assigned for ease of reference, not because they were in common usage at the time) developed independently and far differently. Israel is traced back to around 150 villages in the Eastern Highlands. Judah had about 20 of which Jerusalem was one and not a very impressive town. The population of Israel was thus higher from the start and, because it switched over to agriculture from herding far earlier the population grew much faster. The reasons for this are primarily geographic. The land was better suited to agriculture than the south where the soil was thinner and rainfall was even more sporadic. Pastoralism continued in Judah for a much longer time as the primary economic engine.

What was the political situation c 1000 BC? The Hittites and Canaanite cities had been taken out by the Sea Peoples. The Egyptians had withdrawn from their long occupied base of Beth Shean near Galilee c 1150. The Philistines had occupied the five cities along the coast, but, in typical Greek fashion these were independent city-states and while locally dangerous were probably in no position to threaten expansion. The kingdom of Damascus was probably coming together. Assyria was busy in the east and would not start it's westward expansion for another century and a half.

So, for a brief shining moment there probably was no great military threat looming over the land, which is not to say that the normal forces of clan-based leadership would not have been at work, creating the concept of a nobility among clan leaders and a social hierarchy somewhat akin to feudalism. You also had a time of no public buildings, no literacy, no army (except whatever thugs could be recruited by local leaders) and no organized religion. As William Dever shows, it seems pretty clear that the old Canaanite religion was imported into the new region, because in his view the majority of the Israelites were Canaanite refugees in the first place. Baal, El and Asherah were all in the pantheon

http://www.bellaonline.com/articles/art4950.asp
Yaweh Yahweh was, for a short time, part of the Canaanite pantheon. He was a Son of El; and part of the court of El as cupbearer along with Baal. Later, as the National God of Israel, Yahweh was equated with El, and Asherah became his wife. A stone of the Temple at Jerusalem was found dedicating it to Yaweh, consort of Asherah, in fact.
so there does seem to be quite a degree of cross-pollination going on.


Anyway, back on track.
Then, if you take the OT for a history book, the ever increasing Israelite population wanted to imitate their neighbors. They were not happy about not having a royal family, a standing army, a big temple, to brag about.
Finkelstein, in "David and Solomon" gives a much more lucid reason for the foundation of a monarchy: fear. Backed up by archaeological finds the raid of the 22'd Dynasty Pharaoh, Sheshonq I, has been established. Although the bible claims that the object of his attack was Jerusalem it seems as if Sheshonq never went near the place. There are good reasons for this but I'll get to that in a moment. Working from the Karnak inscription Finkelstein shows that Sheshonq's target was the traditional area of Egyptian interest, the coastal plain (and he either had to be allied with the Philistines or conquer them...and he does not seem to have conquered them!) and the north, near Megiddo which he sacked and burned. Moreover, from the place names listed it seems that Sheshonq hit the developing kingdom of Israel. The date of 925 BC is now fairly solidly backed by C-14 dating of the destruction layers.

The OT wants to pretend that Sheshonq was sent by god to punish Jerusalem and, if it had been a rich city of gold and former capital of a vast empire it would have been a worthy target for an agressive pharoah. But, if in 925 it was an insignificant little hill town, what would have been the point in marching all that way off his intended line of attack? Archaeology has shown that Jerusalem in teh 10th century (and later) was an insignificant town. I just read a study by David Ussishkin which again supports these findings. I'm sure I can find it for you if you'd like to read it.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin
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Post by Minimalist »

Uh-oh....looks like Eilat Mazar is in trouble again!

http://drjimwest.wordpress.com/2008/01/ ... -this-way/

Eilat Mazar was informed by none less than Peter van der Veen that her reading of the seal was erroneous before her speech on Sunday in which she announced to the world her finding. And she ignored that information.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin
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Post by kbs2244 »

First: Sorry to be out of touch for a few days. I had to spend a day driving, 3 hours fixing, and another day driving back. Why can’t I find smart customers?

It did give me a chance to again listen to 1491 as I drove. Even though a bit dated, I still think it is one of the best books written on the pre-history of the America’s. He just shoots holes in stuff that is still being taught.

Anyway:
Ish; nothing personal. I meant “corrupt” from the Malachi point of view.

Min; The whole early history of how the nation came to be doesn’t apply to this artifact. I included it just to give some background info on how the Temple came to be.
I can accept the idea that there is some bias in the OT’s view of how things happened back then.
It is like the Greeks calling Thrace a place of “Barbarians” that lived in caves. But look at what we are finding out about the way of life of those barbarians.
But by 2500 BC I don’t think there is any argument that a nation called “Israel,” with a Temple bureaucracy, existed.

The Peter van der Veen thing will be fun to watch. I have no doubt she will have some equal expert supporters. There are some big bucks and big ego’s involved.

I do have to agree that “Archaeology Shouldn’t Work This Way.”
But when the only funding available is from people or agencies with pre-existing agendas, this is what we get.
At least things are being found. Even if they are argued over after the fact.

It touches on the “looter” argument. If they hadn’t gone out and dug the stuff up, even under questionable circumstances, it would still be buried.
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Post by Minimalist »

To a Greek, anyone who wasn't Greek was a barbarian.

But by 2500 BC I don’t think there is any argument that a nation called “Israel,” with a Temple bureaucracy, existed.

I doubt that anyone, outside of the fundamentalist cause, would agree with that statement.

The Van der Veen thing will temporarily get the heat off of the artifact and transfer it to Mazar. If she did misread it the seal and the name is not related to the bible it is her fuck up. But the implication is that her bosses pressured her to release the find without thinking through the idea that it showed pagan worship inside the temple.

I agree. It will be amusing.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin
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john
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Yup, God Is On Our Side

Post by john »

Lord Acton:

"Power tends to corrupt; absolute power corrupts absolutely".

Religion and politics have been coming in at a dead heat on this one for several millennia.

Yesterday's news, indeed.


john
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Cognito
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Israel

Post by Cognito »

But by 2500 BC I don’t think there is any argument that a nation called “Israel,” with a Temple bureaucracy, existed.
KB, timelines defy that statement.

Akkad, the first Semitic empire, didn't even exist until 2350bc as established by Sargon the Great. That was an impressive empire until it fell apart circa 2125bc, its demise helped apparently by climactic degradation.

If a centralized temple-based bureaucracy called Israel even existed prior to 1,000bc none of its neighbors were talking about it -- no treaties, no marital exchanges with world class powers, no bilateral commercial agreements, no references to major battles, etc.
Natural selection favors the paranoid
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