Archaeologica.org

Thanks Paul, that was very insightful. I've been following your posts in Hall of Ma'at and they're great!

The sad thing is that this won't stop people believing that Visocica Hill is man made. Some ad-hoc answers will appear and we'll be back at it. My bets on the ad-hoc theories:

*Yeah that was natural, we were wrong with that but the pyramid is there, sure! Look at that wall!

*They did build the pyramid with some kind of cement that is just like bedrock, and it got joints just like in a jointed bedrock. It's just like jointed bedrock, but it isn't. It's just a coincidence.

*Those rocks at the paper, they're man made too! there's a pyramid in California!!!

*You're an enemy agent that's trying to spread lies, it's all fake.

Thanks for the post Paul. I don't know how much of this "pyramid" thread you're familiar with but there are many European posters in this forum who are certain that this is a 100% man made pyramid under some dirt.

And I don't believe that your expert opinion will budge them. This seems to be Bosnia central. Thanks again.

Paul H. wrote:

Ciko wrote:nobody in the world can say to me that this is natural ,

http://www.bosnian-pyramid.com/gallery/ ... 0283m2.JPG

As a geologist with almost 20 years experience in being a geology for oil companies, consulting forms, federal agencies, and state agencies, I can say from the many hundreds of outcrops, including excavations for dam sites, I can say beyond any shadow of a doubt that this an excellent example of naturally jointed bedrock. More than enough pictures of this "dig" have posted to the Internet to make this determination. This specific "dig" at the Pyramid of the Moon is one the most classic examples of jointed bedrock a geologist could ever hope to see. It is both instructive and entertaining to see how confused people can be about its origin.

For example, look at the following pictures

1. http://www.piramidasunca.ba/news/11060602/DSCF7337.jpg

2. http://www.piramidasunca.ba/news/11060602/DSCF7285.jpg

3. http://www.piramidasunca.ba/news/11060602/DSCF7286.jpg

In these pictures, the three layers of blocks clearly extend into the finely laminated lake deposits, which comprise the local Miocene bedrock and the hill argued to be a man-made pyramid. This is not the type of layering, which will result from the building of pyramid or other structure. To argue that layers are man-made, a person would have to argue that modern man existed during the Miocene epoch millions of years ago.

Then there is the picture at:

http://www.slibe.com/images/668b8dc7-mo ... d5_jpg.jpg

These blocks, which are claimed to be man-made, exhibit well-defined ripple marks, which are absolutely natural in origin, on their surface. Even worse, the sets of ripple marks not only have the same orientation between each other but also appear to match across joints separating individual blocks. This clearly indicates that it is an in place layer of jointed bedrock. For the ripple marks to remain on the surface of the blocks, people would have had dug up a layer of bedrock and used it within any modification. Then, when laying the blocks, they would have had to carefully lay each these unmodified blocks such that the side showing the ripple marks was right side up as they were excavated from the ground. In addition, they would have had noted the exact position of the blocks as they dug it and laid the pavement or terrace as to carefully reassemble the blocks in exactly the same position as they were taken out of the ground such that the ripple marks on one block has the same orientation as the ripple marks on all of the other blocks and the pieces of an individual ripple mark broken by a joint lie adjacent to each other as they did in the original outcrop. People are not going to this when building pyramid or pavement.

For a detailed discussion about how the type of joints shown in the above pictures are created, go read:

Bai, T., Maerten, L., Gross, M. R., and Aydin, A., 2002, Orthogonal cross joints: Do they
imply a regional stress rotation? Journal of Structural Geology. vol. 24, pp. 77-88.

A 3 MB PDF version of this paper can be downloaded from:

http://pangea.stanford.edu/research/geo ... G_2002.pdf

Compare figures 1a, 1b, and 1c of the above paper with the pictures from the Pyramid of the Moon at:

http://www.bosnian-pyramid.com/gallery/ ... 0283m2.JPG

The people excavating the Bosnian pyramids might want to take the time to look at the layers of rectangular blocks, which are illustrated in the above paper, found along the Santa Barbara, California coast and illustrated in Figure 1a. . It is only a coincidence that these block layers also occur in Miocene age strata. More closer to home, they can look at the layer composed of rectagular blocks found at Nash Point along the shore of the Bristol Channel in the United Kingdom, which is illustrated in figure 1c.

If some people, including a few geologists geologists with PhDs, can continue to believe that the world is less 10,000 years old, I guess other people can believe that the above outcrop is man-made pavement. However, regardless of whether a person wants to either believe that Earth is less than 10,000 years old or the above picture from the "Pyramid of the Moon" shows man-made pavement does not make it true.

Yours,

Paul H.

Paul,
Sorry, the pictures that you and Free Thinker gave as an example to be compared with pictures from Bosnian excavation I think doesn't apply in this case. You should find some example of the bedrock that is comparable to these pictures below. Also, If some people, including a few geologists geologists with PhDs, can continue to believe that the world is less 10,000 years old, I guess and geologist with 20 years of experience could make mistake too.

http://www.piramidasunca.ba/news/11060602/DSCF7317.jpg

http://www.piramidasunca.ba/news/11060602/DSCF7311.jpg

http://www.piramidasunca.ba/news/11060602/DSCF7307.jpg

http://www.piramidasunca.ba/news/11060602/DSCF7328.jpg

http://www.piramidasunca.ba/news/11060602/DSCF7287.jpg

http://www.piramidasunca.ba/news/100606 ... seca01.jpg

http://www.piramidasunca.ba/news/140606/bpm_s1_14.jpg

http://www.piramidasunca.ba/news/150606/pm_s8_4.jpg

I guess and geologist with 20 years of experience could make mistake too.

when you get a constructive critical eye then maybe you can say that but those stones cannot support a pyramid theory. not just for geological reasons but that there are no stone blocks as walls. these blocks are on top not the side and no pyramid i know was built without walls to support the structure.

i would say that the geologist was right this time.

ReneDescartes wrote:I hate to bring this up as I have no proof whatsoever of my statement except a gut feeling .Tell me Stellerchaser ,your name is Alex,right.THe other stellarchaser involved on the website of Oz is not you,but his name is Sasja.Isn't Sasja the diminuyive for Alex in every slavic language ?
I just would like to make sure you are not the same person,and please forgive me for using circumstancial evidence .

I have allready answer this one to Doug I think, but I'll do it again, to make this clear, because you're the third person here that asked me that question, but it's ok:)

I am not him, i am not archeologist, I don't work for the Foundation (and never worked), I never met Osmanagich, and I never even been to Visoko. If I wanted to fool anybody here with my identity, I could easily register here under different name, didn't I? Yes, Sasha is often used as a nick name for Alexander in slavic languages, but Alexander is never used as nick name for Sasha.

However, archeology is my love. I was visiting this site for years to collect archeology news, and regardless on many "bad" words that I got here recently (must admit, have returned some and I apologize to all civilized people here, and they are majority). i still consider it as perhaps best site for that purpose (archeology news).

I never have said that there is pyramid in Visoko; that has to be proved by scientific evidence. But knowing little bit of history of my country, I know that Visocica Hill is situated in the area that was settled from neolithic times. Furthermore, Visocica Hill is also situated in near vicinity of Butmir Culture (I hope that archeologists here heard about that culture), which gives me right to believe that Visochica Hill could be possibly extremely rich archeological site. I am convinced that excavations there will resulted with major findings (again, I am not speaking about pyramid).

Furthermore, Visochica is also in near vicinity of some megalithic fortresses situated between Visoko and Adriatic coast. It is said that these megalithic sites were built by Illirians, but not much work and research has been done there.

Archeologists here are claiming that Osmanagich is a fake. Could be. They also claim that three archeologists and two geologists who work on the site are incompetent. It's bit difficult for me to understand how all five of them can be incompetent. But, ok, everybody has right to his opinion. But I expected from scientists here to discuss possible findings (forget the pyramid now) and if they have sceptical view how excavations are run, and most of them have, to give some constructive suggestions. So far, nobody is doing it, apart of Frenk Harris.

We have here also opposing views. Paul H. for example thinks that stone blocks and pavement are natural. Barakat says they're ain't. And then again, Barakat can't be right, because he's "not competent." It's not fair. Both of them are geologists and their claims still have to be proven by scientific reports and findings. In other words, both claims need scientific verification, and until then, both options are open. I could also easily say "Paul.H is incompetent". It's easy to say that, same as it's easy to say that about Barakat. But Paul H. is geologist with his experience and knowledge, so he can be right. But I think it's also fair that this credit should be given to Mr. Barakat, in same way for same reason.

And I have feeling that everybody here would like for some reason that these excavations are stopped. And I simply cannot see why. I also expected that fellows archeologists have their own ways to communicate one with another. People here are asking me about archeologists there. I don't know those answers. If you are concern about quality of excavations, why don't you ring or e-mail archeologists there and say what's bothering you.

And you also asked how we "croonies of Os" know small little things from excavations. Explanation for this is very simple: Bosnia is rather small country, but we have 70 TV and 150 radio stations, and guess what? All of them are covering excavations, because everybody in Bosnia is interested what outcome will be. I've heard that National TV broadcast excavations on internet 24 hours a day. And almost every town's internet site has forum like this one, where people exchange informations about excavations. So there is no place for "conspiracy theory". In Bosnia, information about Visocica are flying around in a second.

Including one, published by eyewitness, that Mr.Harding was spotted driving around the site in his car after 20.00 PM.

Don't panic, he must've seen the site, because it's still bright daylite long after 20.00 PM in Bosnia. Of course, unless he wore sunglasses.

"...and then, like Lone Rider, we went toward sunset and got into Legend."

But Mr. Harding, I think, knows truth about this one better than all of us.

stellarchaser wrote:
And you also asked how we "croonies of Os" know small little things from excavations. Explanation for this is very simple: Bosnia is rather small country, but we have 70 TV and 150 radio stations, and guess what? All of them are covering excavations, because everybody in Bosnia is interested what outcome will be. I've heard that National TV broadcast excavations on internet 24 hours a day.

Millions of people in Britain have been watching Time Team on tv for 15 years. Doesn't make them all archaeological experts though!

stellarchaser wrote: Including one, published by eyewitness, that Mr.Harding was spotted driving around the site in his car after 20.00 PM.

So what? So-called "eyewitness" reports are usually anonymous, and have no corroborating evidence. Who was the eyewitness, and how was he/she proven be be right?

RK Awl-O'Gist wrote:

stellarchaser wrote:
And you also asked how we "croonies of Os" know small little things from excavations. Explanation for this is very simple: Bosnia is rather small country, but we have 70 TV and 150 radio stations, and guess what? All of them are covering excavations, because everybody in Bosnia is interested what outcome will be. I've heard that National TV broadcast excavations on internet 24 hours a day.

Millions of people in Britain have been watching Time Team on tv for 15 years. Doesn't make them all archaeological experts though!

I am not archeological expert. I just love archeology. It is permitted in my country, and believe in yours too. I came here to learn something from experienced proffessional archeologists, but all I'm getting is yelling.

And why you're so upset by our eyewitness' little story. It's so cute. Legends are made out of such stories, legends that will go over from father to son.

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/3589/mix5vk.jpg
Above "pictures in one" I have posted on 11 of June.These are good
example.They are not from Bosnia.Top left picture is showing that
ripple efect from where is comeing.Left bottom is showing formed
bedrock and right one is showing simmilar sandstone bedrock like on Visochica.
Difference here is that expirienced geologists who have day to day worked on the side are in colision with other geologists who have taken oposite position.It is right way to do to alow geologists who work on the side to represent their case and reason for their findings.Geologist Nukic have openly sayed that will cut on pices her diploma if this are not human formed.That is enough for me to wait for arguments of their case.
For Mr Harding...I think that he have done great mistake when he have been taking oposition side of archeologists from Bosnia.That side is corner side,and nothing positive can come from that position.Probably on the end we are for positive outcome from every endavour.If I have been in position of Mr Harding I will not talk or take side for material finds or for or against exsistence of pyramid.He is president of European association and have right and duty to stay away from actual expert clashes for and against theories or proofs.
What he has to do is to presure ,ask and push Goverment of Bosnia and Hercegovina to folow European standards regarding exavation and protection of Historical monuments.That means if the goverment of Bosnia and Hercagovina have interes to exavate that goverment have to use qualified Bosnian state archeologists.Bosnian state archeologists are not employed by private eterprise and if goverment have decided to exavate they have to do their Job.
That how Mr Harding will protect and serve,not in this way to go in argumental discusion for what he is not prepared and have limmited information and expirience.
By the way in Friday 23.06.2006 in Congres Hall in UNITIC-Saraevo
Egyptian experts probably geolog and archeolog will give preliminary report for exavations up to date.Then we can say this or that...up till then it is pointles to argue about anything.

stellarchaser wrote: I am not archeological expert. I just love archeology. It is permitted in my country, and believe in yours too. I came here to learn something from experienced proffessional archeologists, but all I'm getting is yelling.

If you came here to "learn something from experienced archaeologists", why have you spent most of your time telling us that we're wrong?
When we comment on the archaeology found, you keep telling us we're "not there", and any photos provided are usually close-ups with no background context, so they could literally be anything. The pictures can't be found anywhere else except on the "pyramid foundations'" own website, so there's no way of corroborating any of them. You've had explanations from archaeologists, geologists etc as to why we're suspicious of the whole project, but all you do is act as if we've offended your national pride.

stellarchaser wrote:And why you're so upset by our eyewitness' little story. It's so cute. Legends are made out of such stories, legends that will go over from father to son.

I'm just annoyed at such a blatant lie. You've already criticised the rest of us for supposedly being "obsessed" with Osmanagich, yet despite telling us you're not interested in Harding, you STILL manage to make reference to him in every other post!
You and your cohorts claim to be "updating us", yet you can only post links to stuff that's on the foundation's website, since it doesn't appear anywhere else. You can hardly blame the rest of us for being suspicious about both your allegiances and your motives.

No-one is taking sides.

It's just that most professionals (and, indeed, amateurs) prefer to base their judgements on evidence rather than faith.

There is still no evidence that the hills themselves are artifical. Only that at some point(s) in history buildings etc have been built on some of them. Which we knew already.

We say there is no evidence the hills are artifical, not because of taking sides or wanting to defend some paradigm, but for the simple reason that there is no evidence the hills are artifical. That is a fact. It may, of course, as yet be overturned by some new discovery. But as time goes on it does seem increasingly unlikely ....

RK Awl-O'Gist wrote:

stellarchaser wrote: I am not archeological expert. I just love archeology. It is permitted in my country, and believe in yours too. I came here to learn something from experienced proffessional archeologists, but all I'm getting is yelling.

If you came here to "learn something from experienced archaeologists", why have you spent most of your time telling us that we're wrong?
When we comment on the archaeology found, you keep telling us we're "not there", and any photos provided are usually close-ups with no background context, so they could literally be anything. The pictures can't be found anywhere else except on the "pyramid foundations'" own website, so there's no way of corroborating any of them. You've had explanations from archaeologists, geologists etc as to why we're suspicious of the whole project, but all you do is act as if we've offended your national pride.

stellarchaser wrote:And why you're so upset by our eyewitness' little story. It's so cute. Legends are made out of such stories, legends that will go over from father to son.

I'm just annoyed at such a blatant lie. You've already criticised the rest of us for supposedly being "obsessed" with Osmanagich, yet despite telling us you're not interested in Harding, you STILL manage to make reference to him in every other post!
You and your cohorts claim to be "updating us", yet you can only post links to stuff that's on the foundation's website, since it doesn't appear anywhere else. You can hardly blame the rest of us for being suspicious about both your allegiances and your motives.

First of all, I'm not saying you are wrong. But at this stage of excavations, you're neither right. In other words, we don't know what, if anything, will be discover at Visochica Hill. Or you maybe know that allready? Will you tear your Diploma as geologist Nukic, if they find for example huge prehistoric site there? Thank you very much.

Secondly, you're not the only one who suffers with photos that tell nothing. It's not my fault. I can't recognise anything reasonable from them too, because obviously there's a close-up maniacal freak in charge of camera, and it would be tremendeous step for the mankind if someone would take that camera from his hands.

And further on about pictures: don't tell me that none of you could established link with Visoko Museum in order to get reliable photos or written materials. Why nobody from any archeology association worldwide didn't go there to make quality pictures and collect data. But I'm affraid that only reason that no one contacted them regarding this, is nothing else but your ego. Like Harding: "I'm on a top of the world, Ma! I know everything, Ma!" As president of European Archeology Association, he could easily arrange everything with Visoko Museum. But no, he even didn't say hallo to people there. So now all of us should be clapping to him? At least he could arrange reliable flow of data for you and for us. And send few "real archeologists" as you say, to supervise the excavations at the spot. And whole story would be different.

Further: I'm not updating you. I neither have ability, nor I'm in the position to update anyone, because I'm sentenced only to pictures from Foundation website, i.e. above mentioned maniac - just like you.

As for Mr.Harding, I asked you all which archeological methods he used in assessment of Visochica site. Only Doug Weller responded, just one man of zillion archeologists here, saying that most probably he used his experience. I then asked again, and I'm asking again, very politely, without any negative thoughts or sarcasm:

please what archeological methods are usually used in assessment of some potential archeological site.

Is there anything else apart of experience?

Are there any other scientific methods of assesing potencial archeological site?

Is that so hard to answer? Because IF turns out that pavement is man-made (and Mr. Harding said that he believes that pavement is natural), it is clear that assessment based only on experience is not 100% reliable. And if there are some other archeological methods of assessment, my question is: why Mr.Harding didn't used those methods? I'm asking these questions because I feel that Mr.Harding didn't do his assessment properly. Maybe I'm wrong, it's only my feeling.

Is anybody here teaching archeology at University perhaps? If yes, please tell us what you say to your students about assessment of the potential archeological site. If there's nothing there apart of 'Use your experience and don't talk to anybody" I'll accept that. That's the method and full stop. I'll apologise for all what I said about mr. Harding's visit to Bosnia and his proffessional assesment of Visochica Hill.

You can hardly blame the rest of us for being suspicious about both your allegiances and your motives

I don't blame you for anything. And I must laugh now, because you're claiming now that few Bosnians, amateurs, can influence your proffessional point of view? Do you really think that we are so dangerous that we can "brainwash" all those scientists here? I can't speak for others, but I can say my motive: and that is to see outcome of excavations. I would be very happy, if dozens of archeologists go there today, as independent experts, sceptical as they wish to be, to see what's going on there and maybe even help with their expertise. I'm 100% sure that it will only benefit to the excavations. And I believe that will happened very soon, regardless on this mutual mistrust, because all chances are that excavations will last 5, if not 10 years. And that could be wonderful archeological adventure for everybody.

It has nothing to do with pyramid, or national pride, or nonsense that civilization started in Bosnia. it has to do with the fact that archeology can be on the brink of wonderful discoveries there. (Again, I'm not reffering to a pyramid )

i'm wondering if anyone could direct my attention to an oz like enterprise that was handled correctly, by that i mean a man with money and a theory but not an archaeologist who does/did it in an acceptable way. i'm sure there must be some instances.

stellarchaser wrote:
You can hardly blame the rest of us for being suspicious about both your allegiances and your motives

It's rather silly to be suspicious of some geologists and archaeologists that are completely unrelated to the excavation at Visoko, and not being suspicious of Osmanagic who has wild, ridiculous and unscientific ideas (obvious even to someone without formation in archaeology), who has lied about who his collaborators are, and who has hidden information that was against his claims. Or Barakat, who has been easily proven wrong a couple of times, and has botched it at least once before as far as we know (the sand dollars incident).

It seems pretty obvious who you should believe.

Anyway, you argue that we should wait until the excavation is finished in order to see if there's a pyramid, who knows, maybe all those geologists are wrong and the Osma Team is right. Yeah, but, there's no trace of a pyramid there. All their proofs of a pyramid there have been proven false. Why should they keep digging? because Osmanagic had a hunch about it?

stellarchaser wrote: First of all, I'm not saying you are wrong. But at this stage of excavations, you're neither right. In other words, we don't know what, if anything, will be discover at Visochica Hill. Or you maybe know that allready? Will you tear your Diploma as geologist Nukic, if they find for example huge prehistoric site there? Thank you very much.

That fact hasn't stopped believers from coming in here and making fantastic claims they KNOW they can't support.

stellarchaser wrote:Secondly, you're not the only one who suffers with photos that tell nothing. It's not my fault. I can't recognise anything reasonable from them too, because obviously there's a close-up maniacal freak in charge of camera, and it would be tremendeous step for the mankind if someone would take that camera from his hands

I agree.

stellarchaser wrote:And further on about pictures: don't tell me that none of you could established link with Visoko Museum in order to get reliable photos or written materials

Feel free to do it yourself; I won't criticise this time.

stellarchaser wrote: Why nobody from any archeology association worldwide didn't go there to make quality pictures and collect data

In the other thread, I explained THREE times why archaeologists can't just drop everything and go to the latest dig.

stellarchaser wrote: But I'm affraid that only reason that no one contacted them regarding this, is nothing else but your ego. Like Harding: "I'm on a top of the world, Ma! I know everything, Ma!"

There you go again; you only seem able to insult everyone who doesn't see it YOUR way.

stellarchaser wrote:As president of European Archeology Association, he could easily arrange everything with Visoko Museum. But no, he even didn't say hallo to people there. So now all of us should be clapping to him? At least he could arrange reliable flow of data for you and for us. And send few "real archeologists" as you say, to supervise the excavations at the spot. And whole story would be different.

And how do YOU know that he DIDN'T try?

stellarchaser wrote:please what archeological methods are usually used in assessment of some potential archeological site.

Is there anything else apart of experience?

Are there any other scientific methods of assesing potencial archeological site?

1) You research written records/ previous excavation notes for the prospective site.
2)A team goes out to survey the site, using geophysical equipment to get a radar picture of what's below the surface.
3)They report back, and if there is enough to justify excavation, funding is applied for.
4)If successful in that, licenses to dig are applied for
5)The excavating team is assembled, with experts in particular fields depending on what is hoped to be found.
6)On arrival on site, the team decides how best to investigate the site. More geophys is used to get a broader picture, and trenches planned according to what is deemed a priority.
7)Each trench is excavated by a dedicated team, with no-one else being allowed in while digging progresses.
8 ) Soil from each trench is sieved, to find any tiny artefacts that may have been missed first time round.
9)Once experts have agreed on what has been found, they are recorded using a grid system, photography, and then recovered and individually bagged for further investigation later.
10) Photography usually includes a tower, to give an overall picture of the site and trenches in context.
11) Any further equipment/expert advice is brought in as needed.
12) In Britain at least, any discovery of human remains requires the Police to be notified to rule out a crime scene.

stellarchaser wrote: why Mr.Harding didn't used those methods? I'm asking these questions because I feel that Mr.Harding didn't do his assessment properly. Maybe I'm wrong, it's only my feeling.

Because of the amount of time and paperwork that's usually needed.

stellarchaser wrote:Is anybody here teaching archeology at University perhaps? If yes, please tell us what you say to your students about assessment of the potential archeological site.

I used to, and made a point of drilling all the above into them. But sometimes, there's just no substitute for a gut feeling that comes from experience. I've a feeling that's what Tony Harding used.

stellarchaser wrote:I don't blame you for anything. And I must laugh now, because you're claiming now that few Bosnians, amateurs, can influence your proffessional point of view?

I said nothing of the kind. I'm making the point that we seem to have had a sudden influx of new members from Bosnia over the last few weeks, and they all seem determined to defend this project to the death. That suggests either they suffer from a dangerous level of national pride, or that they're project insiders playing a double game.

I am not Mr Harding but I can tell you how someone from the field can throw away all that like natural and nonsense.Eazy,mostly based on available data and extraordinary claims.To claim that what have been claiming Mr Sam means to alow child to play with real guns.His claim have date hyper building abilities from time when people have left their mark on the earth in subtile and different way,sending us information throught stone tools and extraordinary pictorials from live with gathering food.It is long away from skills and tools and society and industry wich is needed for building such a object like stone pyramid.
So... he have done this with simple facts nown to all who have been even in secondary school.For this kind of reasoning he even dont need to be ever in Bosnia and Visocica.
Is this is looking like scientific stereotype-yes.