Archaeologica.org

Yep! Like I said Min, inbreeding fixes genes, so if you start with bad stock you end up with undesirable traits. But let us never forget that every breed of domestic animal and plant is the result of inbreeding. It would seem that man has been aware of the downside though for many years as that is almost certainly the reason for the near universal proscription against incest.

I was surprised to learn how limited that "universality" actually is, though.

Perhaps it would be more correct to say that incest is defined differently in different cultures but in Africa it seems that cousins marry all the time.

Charlie, one of the things that biologists always talk about is inherent survivability of a species. Hence, a couple of percentage points different and Neanderthal might have out-survived HSS in Europe. One thing that comes out of this story is the question of still-births which result from in-breeding.

Charlie, one of the things that biologists always talk about is inherent survivability of a species. Hence, a couple of percentage points different and Neanderthal might have out-survived HSS in Europe. One thing that comes out of this story is the question of still-births which result from in-breeding.

Yeah, Hss seemed to be a bit more on the ball...and obviously out bred HNs, though, I think quite a bit of HNs is still incorporated into the general Hss population. I think it's plausible to assume HNs was incorporated into the dominant Hss population...like the European Spaniard is incorporated into the populations in Mexico, Central and South America...you can peg the genetic expression easily...blue eyes and olive skin.

Digit wrote:There is actually an upside to inbreeding as well as the downside. Inbreeding helps fix genes and to be honest I often wonder if the downside is overstated. For example, the dynastic Egyptians married siblings and I believe it also happened in pre-Col south America. Am I correct WA?

You are, and I've been looking through my bookcase for direct information. Still not quite sure where I've seen it but I think it runs along the lines of the royal lineage being directly descended from the sun, it was thought unwise for all that piety to be diluted with the blood of Tupac Q. Public. Brothers married sisters and had kids who would marry each other from Manco Capac (first ruler in Cabello's possibly apocryphal list) up to thirteen generations later with Atauhualpa (1532-1533) who was probably very lucky to have been born with the customary hominid number of eyes. Inbreeding seems to be taboo in many cultures and (aside from the solar dynasty thing) I'm not even sure this wasn't exactly why it might have been associated with the sacred in Peru. Certainly in Mexico, anything abnormal or in some way unnaceptable (uncleansliness, deformity, consumption of >ahem< poo and wee) was associated with the sacred (through it being something outside of established normality) and maybe the same aesthetic held sway in peru with the incest thing.
I'm not going to get into the Royal family here because I'm not quite sure what libel laws apply to the internet, but I'm pretty sure there was a touch of inbreeding going on where I grew up. Check this out:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/coventry/content/a ... ture.shtml
That was about a mile away from where we lived and I remember places in the photos from when I was a kid. The whole place and it's worryingly rural mindset does little to convince me of any upside to making whoopee with one's siblings.
Charlie asked:

I'm wondering if anyone's familiar with major dispersal accounts in other religions...kinda like we were doing on the flood bit. Do any of the Native American legends speak of a great dispersal?

Again, just brainstorming...

I think there's a few. The non-Mexica nahuatl groups of the Valley of Mexico (Acolhua, Tecpanec, Tlahuica and so on) all claim to have dispersed from the mythic Chicomoztoc ('Place of Seven Caves' - which like Aztlan was reputedly somewhere in the north) as seen in Codex Boturini and other sources. http://instructional1.calstatela.edu/be ... 00014.html
I seem to remember a Mixtec equivalent, Mixtecs being either 'tree-born' or 'sky-born' from somewhere in the east but don't quote me on that just yet. Once again it's buried deep within the SE London Book Depository.

The 13 generations would seem to help my point about good breeding stock. I don't recall the Egyptians having problems either, but again, I'm not sure how many generations then went through.
I read a fascinating story some years ago, WA, that applies to your village idiot idea. Apparently the Spanish royal house was so inbred at one time that each generation had more than its fair share of defectives and couldn't really hide the fact. Result? They became fashionable to have, so the followers of fashion hired village idiots and passed them off as their own. The Bavarian royals weren't much better off either, one woman was convinced she had swallowed a glass grand piano. I kid you not!

Digit wrote: They became fashionable to have, so the followers of fashion hired village idiots and passed them off as their own. The Bavarian royals weren't much better off either, one woman was convinced she had swallowed a glass grand piano. I kid you not!

RAOTFLMAO!

The 13 generations would seem to help my point about good breeding stock. I don't recall the Egyptians having problems either, but again, I'm not sure how many generations then went through.

That's a good point....except I don't know if the average Egyptian dynasty lasted all that long and that could be evidence right there for problems with in-breeding.

I remember that the recent "crowned heads of Europe" were called bluebloods because they had concentrated the Hemophilia gene due to inbreeding amongst themselves.

They became fashionable to have, so the followers of fashion hired village idiots and passed them off as their own.

I think the Bush family did the same thing.

As democracy is perfected, the office represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. We move toward a lofty ideal. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart’s desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.

- H. L. Mencken, 1920

William Burroughs said something along the lines of politics being the only profession were being stupid is a virtue. I think he was getting at the number of politicians who start off with "I am not an intellectual. I am just a plain-speaking man..."

And Honest Abe claimed to have taken to politics having failed as a teacher and store owner. I don't Blair could run a Bring an Buy Store without a massive injection of tax payers money.

I think the Bush family did the same thing.

Old Man Joe Kennedy ran booze during the prohibition. Grand Daddy Prescott Bush was a Nazi sympathizer. On this side of the pond it helps to have a family patriarch who is a criminal before the royal line is established. Makes for better business connections.

You guys are funny today!

We're funny every day!

Cognito wrote:

I think the Bush family did the same thing.

Old Man Joe Kennedy ran booze during the prohibition. Grand Daddy Prescott Bush was a Nazi sympathizer. On this side of the pond it helps to have a family patriarch who is a criminal before the royal line is established. Makes for better business connections.

Comedian, Chris Rock, observed that behind every great fortune is a great crime.