Archaeologica.org

So if in your opinion, GHMB was too wacky and HOM was too stuffy we must be the right combination of what interests you, somewhere between wacky and stuffy.

Why, suddenly, do I feel like the last bowl of porridge at the Three Bears' house?

Ishtar wrote:throws all his toys out of the pram

Digit wrote:Holier than thou and say nowt!

Pram, nowt. I'm sorry. I only speak Italian and American.

Pram is a shortened word for perambulator, ie baby buggy, and nowt is Yorkshire dialect for nothing.
I keep forgetting that my wife's family come from Yorkshire and that most people don't.

This is a new thread to me. I just went back and read it from the start to see what all the fuss was about.
It seems we have a classic case of an “out of place artifact”? Or two.
A bowl and statue (that is kind of phallic) found in the mountains of South America with inscriptions in an unknown language on them.
Dating is open to question.
Symbols in the inscriptions are somewhat similar to those of Mesopotamia, so some have suggested a South America to Mesopotamia link of some kind.
Because they are classic “out of place artifacts”, no one with a reputation to protect will comment on them.
So, as it stands now, nobody knows anything for sure.
Is this a fair summery?

Well, I'm back at the house now and catching up. I think I've summed up my thoughts on the Pokotia monolith before but they are:

Unlike the Fuente Magna, the Monolith was discovered in situ by a team of archaeologists. It was dated by that method to have been there since 1900BC.

They recognized that the inscriptions on it resembled ancient Sumerian. So they requested that Clyde Winters attempt to translate them.

Winters did that, and the translation was amazingly similar to what one would expect from the legendary figure that Graham Hancock described.
He also further dated the monolith to 3500BC from the age of the language.

The Pokotia Monolith is being ignored by orthodox scientists around the world.

Unless one believes that a large number of seemingly respectable people are lying, there seems to be little choice as to what is true.

Digit wrote:
I keep forgetting that my wife's family come from Yorkshire and that most people don't.

Really?
Well, let me help jog your memory then: your wife's family comes from Yorkshire and most people don't. Write it down somewhere.

It's a summary of 'if it doesn't fit the accepted view, ignore it'.
All scientific disciplines are incredibly good at burying their heads in the sand whilst talking out of their backsides.
If you're not familiar with the story look up Ramond Dart and you'll see just one example.

Thank you Rokcet!

Beagle wrote:Unless one believes that a large number of seemingly respectable people are lying, there seems to be little choice as to what is true.

What is true?
It seems by your wording, there is the idea it could be possibly older: "It was dated...to have been there since..." Further, I would not be inclined to date anything by the age of the language. Otherwise I would have to say most things in Quebec are over a 1000 years old since french is quite an old language.

I would be interested in the Heancock reference if you can provide it.

Has anyone other than Clyde Winters said the monolith incriptions looked Sumerian as opposed to Olmec?

In my case, I am not ignoring the truth, I am trying to discover it.

Forum Monk wrote:

Beagle wrote:Unless one believes that a large number of seemingly respectable people are lying, there seems to be little choice as to what is true.

What is true?
It seems by your wording, there is the idea it could be possibly older: "It was dated...to have been there since..." Further, I would not be inclined to date anything by the age of the language. Otherwise I would have to say most things in Quebec are over a 1000 years old since french is quite an old language.

I would be interested in the Heancock reference if you can provide it.

Has anyone other than Clyde Winters said the monolith incriptions looked Sumerian as opposed to Olmec?

In my case, I am not ignoring the truth, I am trying to discover it.

Let's see here... regarding the dating I'm merely quoting the experts. The archaeologists dated by way of the strata it was found in. Winters dated it by way of the dialect on it. Language never stays the same Monk, it is continually changing. Talking to an Englishman from 500 years ago would be like talking to a Chinaman.

Winters described it as Proto-Sumerian. And was able to date it by way of that dialect. I'm not even an amateur linguist and I know that it is often done. I don't know what others have said. He was the only person invited to do the job. I believe Winters would say that the Olmecs were from East Africa and spoke an early dialect of Sumerian.

Hancock spoke of the Peruvian deity Viracocha. His description sounds caucasian. He is described as a teacher and civilizer who came and eventually returned from over the sea. He has certain similarities to the Sumerian god Oannes. Page 45 of FOTG.

The amazing thing about all of this are the implications of what seems to be evidence of early diffusionism that we have talked about in the other thread. So far this has just been stuck on language.

Beagle wrote:Winters dated it by way of the dialect on it. Language never stays the same Monk, it is continually changing. Talking to an Englishman from 500 years ago would be like talking to a Chinaman.

Winters described it as Proto-Sumerian. And was able to date it by way of that dialect. I'm not even an amateur linguist and I know that it is often done. I don't know what others have said. He was the only person invited to do the job. I believe Winters would say that the Olmecs were from East Africa and spoke an early dialect of Sumerian.

We're stuck on language because that is the distinguishing feature of this monolith which makes it unique. My point about the language dating is this; let's say for illustration that a group of "proto" sumerians came to south america and brought their proto-language with them. And so they settle and developed in quasi-isolation (although the point is valid even if trade relations continued). The proto sumerian on both sides would continue to evolve independently. (its happened with france and Qubec province) After hundreds or a thousand years, there can be some significant differences but the proto elements would still exist. Now, if the south american version is carved into a statue at the later date, how would an archaeologist know without a reference to a truly older piece where in the course of language evolution, the sample in question stands. I can write english (somewhat) and so did Shakespeare. If an archaeologist knew and dated Shakespeares work and then seen mine for the first time, he could conclude that, like shakespeare, it is English, many of the proto-elements of english exist in my writing so therefore I may have written it 500 years ago. Unless of course, he had evidences of a progression of my version of the language. Then he could be more accurate in is dating. AFAIK, there is no history of language progession in Boliva. Therefore, lacking further evidence, I fail to see how this piece can be dated based on language alone. 3500bce is very old for written language. Very old.

I hope this makes sense.

I see what you're saying Monk but nobody has suggested that Sumerians came and stayed indefinately. In fact I imagine Clyde Winters would say that they weren't Sumerian at all, but an offshoot of the Olmecs, which he believes originated in East Africa. Your best bet for an answer on this would be to email Clyde Winters and ask him directly. The address is posted somewhere in this thread.

3500 BC is a long time ago, but the Sumerians were writing then. The Indus/Sarasvati civilization was writing even earlier.

On the subject of how language changes etc and that English of 500 yrs ago would be like Chinese to most I have to agree, try Shakespear.
In addition, I've put my foot in it often with our US friends, but one of the strange things is the degree to which English english and American english is still so compatible.
Just try Darwin's writings and see how good English has changed since his time.
In these days it is obvious that our two languages will converge, but we were separated, with little intercourse between us, for longer than Darwin's time and yet when the net made things so easy, still we spoke the same language and we had both moved in much the same direction.
I would have expected much greater variation in the two languages.

Not for nothing did Winston Churchill quote George Bernard Shaw: "The Americans and the English are one people, divided by a common language"


The Chaos
by Gerard Nolst Trenité

This is a classic English poem containing about 800 of the worst irregularities in English spelling and pronunciation.


Dearest creature in creation
Studying English pronunciation,
I will teach you in my verse
Sounds like corpse, corps, horse and worse.

I will keep you, Susy, busy,
Make your head with heat grow dizzy;
Tear in eye, your dress you'll tear;
Queer, fair seer, hear my prayer.

Pray, console your loving poet,
Make my coat look new, dear, sew it!
Just compare heart, hear and heard,
Dies and diet, lord and word.

Sword and sward, retain and Britain
(Mind the latter how it's written).
Made has not the sound of bade,
Say-said, pay-paid, laid but plaid.

Now I surely will not plague you
With such words as vague and ague,
But be careful how you speak,
Say: gush, bush, steak, streak, break, bleak ,

Previous, precious, fuchsia, via
Recipe, pipe, studding-sail, choir;
Woven, oven, how and low,
Script, receipt, shoe, poem, toe.

Say, expecting fraud and trickery:
Daughter, laughter and Terpsichore,
Branch, ranch, measles, topsails, aisles,
Missiles, similes, reviles.

Wholly, holly, signal, signing,
Same, examining, but mining,
Scholar, vicar, and cigar,
Solar, mica, war and far.

From "desire": desirable-admirable from "admire",
Lumber, plumber, bier, but brier,
Topsham, brougham, renown, but known,
Knowledge, done, lone, gone, none, tone,

One, anemone, Balmoral,
Kitchen, lichen, laundry, laurel.
Gertrude, German, wind and wind,
Beau, kind, kindred, queue, mankind,

Tortoise, turquoise, chamois-leather,
Reading, Reading, heathen, heather.
This phonetic labyrinth
Gives moss, gross, brook, brooch, ninth, plinth.

Have you ever yet endeavoured
To pronounce revered and severed,
Demon, lemon, ghoul, foul, soul,
Peter, petrol and patrol?

Billet does not end like ballet;
Bouquet, wallet, mallet, chalet.
Blood and flood are not like food,
Nor is mould like should and would.

Banquet is not nearly parquet,
Which exactly rhymes with khaki.
Discount, viscount, load and broad,
Toward, to forward, to reward,

Ricocheted and crocheting, croquet?
Right! Your pronunciation's OK.
Rounded, wounded, grieve and sieve,
Friend and fiend, alive and live.

Is your r correct in higher?
Keats asserts it rhymes Thalia.
Hugh, but hug, and hood, but hoot,
Buoyant, minute, but minute.

Say abscission with precision,
Now: position and transition;
Would it tally with my rhyme
If I mentioned paradigm?

Twopence, threepence, tease are easy,
But cease, crease, grease and greasy?
Cornice, nice, valise, revise,
Rabies, but lullabies.

Of such puzzling words as nauseous,
Rhyming well with cautious, tortious,
You'll envelop lists, I hope,
In a linen envelope.

Would you like some more? You'll have it!
Affidavit, David, davit.
To abjure, to perjure. Sheik
Does not sound like Czech but ache.

Liberty, library, heave and heaven,
Rachel, loch, moustache, eleven.
We say hallowed, but allowed,
People, leopard, towed but vowed.

Mark the difference, moreover,
Between mover, plover, Dover.
Leeches, breeches, wise, precise,
Chalice, but police and lice,

Camel, constable, unstable,
Principle, disciple, label.
Petal, penal, and canal,
Wait, surmise, plait, promise, pal,

Suit, suite, ruin. Circuit, conduit
Rhyme with "shirk it" and "beyond it",
But it is not hard to tell
Why it's pall, mall, but Pall Mall.

Muscle, muscular, gaol, iron,
Timber, climber, bullion, lion,
Worm and storm, chaise, chaos, chair,
Senator, spectator, mayor,

Ivy, privy, famous; clamour
Has the a of drachm and hammer.
Pussy, hussy and possess,
Desert, but desert, address.

Golf, wolf, countenance, lieutenants
Hoist in lieu of flags left pennants.
Courier, courtier, tomb, bomb, comb,
Cow, but Cowper, some and home.

"Solder, soldier! Blood is thicker",
Quoth he, "than liqueur or liquor",
Making, it is sad but true,
In bravado, much ado.

Stranger does not rhyme with anger,
Neither does devour with clangour.
Pilot, pivot, gaunt, but aunt,
Font, front, wont, want, grand and grant.

Arsenic, specific, scenic,
Relic, rhetoric, hygienic.
Gooseberry, goose, and close, but close,
Paradise, rise, rose, and dose.

Say inveigh, neigh, but inveigle,
Make the latter rhyme with eagle.
Mind! Meandering but mean,
Valentine and magazine.

And I bet you, dear, a penny,
You say mani-(fold) like many,
Which is wrong. Say rapier, pier,
Tier (one who ties), but tier.

Arch, archangel; pray, does erring
Rhyme with herring or with stirring?
Prison, bison, treasure trove,
Treason, hover, cover, cove,

Perseverance, severance. Ribald
Rhymes (but piebald doesn't) with nibbled.
Phaeton, paean, gnat, ghat, gnaw,
Lien, psychic, shone, bone, pshaw.

Don't be down, my own, but rough it,
And distinguish buffet, buffet;
Brood, stood, roof, rook, school, wool, boon,
Worcester, Boleyn, to impugn.

Say in sounds correct and sterling
Hearse, hear, hearken, year and yearling.
Evil, devil, mezzotint,
Mind the z! (A gentle hint.)

Now you need not pay attention
To such sounds as I don't mention,
Sounds like pores, pause, pours and paws,
Rhyming with the pronoun yours;

Nor are proper names included,
Though I often heard, as you did,
Funny rhymes to unicorn,
Yes, you know them, Vaughan and Strachan.

No, my maiden, coy and comely,
I don't want to speak of Cholmondeley.
No. Yet Froude compared with proud
Is no better than McLeod.

But mind trivial and vial,
Tripod, menial, denial,
Troll and trolley, realm and ream,
Schedule, mischief, schism, and scheme.

Argil, gill, Argyll, gill. Surely
May be made to rhyme with Raleigh,
But you're not supposed to say
Piquet rhymes with sobriquet.

Had this invalid invalid
Worthless documents? How pallid,
How uncouth he, couchant, looked,
When for Portsmouth I had booked!

Zeus, Thebes, Thales, Aphrodite,
Paramour, enamoured, flighty,
Episodes, antipodes,
Acquiesce, and obsequies.

Please don't monkey with the geyser,
Don't peel 'taters with my razor,
Rather say in accents pure:
Nature, stature and mature.

Pious, impious, limb, climb, glumly,
Worsted, worsted, crumbly, dumbly,
Conquer, conquest, vase, phase, fan,
Wan, sedan and artisan.

The th will surely trouble you
More than r, ch or w.
Say then these phonetic gems:
Thomas, thyme, Theresa, Thames.

Thompson, Chatham, Waltham, Streatham,
There are more but I forget 'em-
Wait! I've got it: Anthony,
Lighten your anxiety.

The archaic word albeit
Does not rhyme with eight-you see it;
With and forthwith, one has voice,
One has not, you make your choice.

Shoes, goes, does *. Now first say: finger;
Then say: singer, ginger, linger.
Real, zeal, mauve, gauze and gauge,
Marriage, foliage, mirage, age,

Hero, heron, query, very,
Parry, tarry fury, bury,
Dost, lost, post, and doth, cloth, loth,
Job, Job, blossom, bosom, oath.

Faugh, oppugnant, keen oppugners,
Bowing, bowing, banjo-tuners
Holm you know, but noes, canoes,
Puisne, truism, use, to use?

Though the difference seems little,
We say actual, but victual,
Seat, sweat, chaste, caste, Leigh, eight, height,
Put, nut, granite, and unite.

Reefer does not rhyme with deafer,
Feoffer does, and zephyr, heifer.
Dull, bull, Geoffrey, George, ate, late,
Hint, pint, senate, but sedate.

Gaelic, Arabic, pacific,
Science, conscience, scientific;
Tour, but our, dour, succour, four,
Gas, alas, and Arkansas.

Say manoeuvre, yacht and vomit,
Next omit, which differs from it
Bona fide, alibi
Gyrate, dowry and awry.

Sea, idea, guinea, area,
Psalm, Maria, but malaria.
Youth, south, southern, cleanse and clean,
Doctrine, turpentine, marine.

Compare alien with Italian,
Dandelion with battalion,
Rally with ally; yea, ye,
Eye, I, ay, aye, whey, key, quay!

Say aver, but ever, fever,
Neither, leisure, skein, receiver.
Never guess-it is not safe,
We say calves, valves, half, but Ralf.

Starry, granary, canary,
Crevice, but device, and eyrie,
Face, but preface, then grimace,
Phlegm, phlegmatic, ass, glass, bass.

Bass, large, target, gin, give, verging,
Ought, oust, joust, and scour, but scourging;
Ear, but earn; and ere and tear
Do not rhyme with here but heir.

Mind the o of off and often
Which may be pronounced as orphan,
With the sound of saw and sauce;
Also soft, lost, cloth and cross.

Pudding, puddle, putting. Putting?
Yes: at golf it rhymes with shutting.
Respite, spite, consent, resent.
Liable, but Parliament.

Seven is right, but so is even,
Hyphen, roughen, nephew, Stephen,
Monkey, donkey, clerk and jerk,
Asp, grasp, wasp, demesne, cork, work.

A of valour, vapid vapour,
S of news (compare newspaper),
G of gibbet, gibbon, gist,
I of antichrist and grist,

Differ like diverse and divers,
Rivers, strivers, shivers, fivers.
Once, but nonce, toll, doll, but roll,
Polish, Polish, poll and poll.

Pronunciation-think of Psyche!-
Is a paling, stout and spiky.
Won't it make you lose your wits
Writing groats and saying "grits"?

It's a dark abyss or tunnel
Strewn with stones like rowlock, gunwale,
Islington, and Isle of Wight,
Housewife, verdict and indict.

Don't you think so, reader, rather,
Saying lather, bather, father?
Finally, which rhymes with enough,
Though, through, bough, cough, hough, sough, tough??

Hiccough has the sound of sup...
My advice is: GIVE IT UP!

Yep!
There's an old joke over here about it when the stage musical 'Cavalcade' was showing in London.
A foreigner over here, and struggling with the language, was standing on the underground waiting for a train. He starts to read the adverts on the walls to help him with his studies, till he sees a large poster emblazoned with the headlines;
CAVALCADE!
PRONOUNCED SUCESS!

He threw himself under the train!