Indus Valley Civilization.
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Minimalist
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Interesting but in light of the dating at Catalhoyuk where people were living in a decent sized town some 9,000 years ago, it is hard to see why that could not be construed as "civilization."
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.
-- George Carlin
-- George Carlin
I agree with that. The folks at Catalhoyuk had religion, government, and had small cities, albeit underground.
What I like about the "radical new view" of civilization that I posted is that the Indus-Sarasvati civilization is ranked equally with Mesopotamia. You know my view that it is also older. It'll be interesting to see what develops.
What I like about the "radical new view" of civilization that I posted is that the Indus-Sarasvati civilization is ranked equally with Mesopotamia. You know my view that it is also older. It'll be interesting to see what develops.
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Minimalist
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Hancock still thinks that the answer is off the Indian coast....underwater!
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.
-- George Carlin
-- George Carlin
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Rokcet Scientist
The underwater city in the Gulf of Cambay. We were just talking about the GHMB, and here is an example. This is an Indian geologist posting there.Minimalist wrote:Hancock still thinks that the answer is off the Indian coast....underwater!
http://www.grahamhancock.com/forum/Badr ... B1.php?p=1
This is the last paragraph in a long article (6 pages). It's very good but for those who don't want to read that much, at least look at the pictures. The side scan photography is unmistakable.So, from the foregoing it is very evident the prehistoric civilization that matured and developed in the present day Gulf of Cambay was the forerunner and model to the subsequent advanced Harrapan civilization known to history. This wonderful twin prehistoric metropolis of Cambay lasted from about 13000 BP to about 3000 BP making it the most ancient and largest city civilization not only in Asia but in the entire world. It is seen to be at least 7500 years older than the oldest Mesopotamian city civilization. However strong evidence supports the presence of humans from at least 31000 BP who were evolving and developing and formed a great hitherto unknown civilization that were submerged by the flood, giving credence to local and global flood myths
All that is left is to date the city. I haven't found any results yet on the piece of wood from the well.
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Minimalist
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Dating
Get me a radiocarbon date for wood removed from one of those underwater structures and I'll be a believer. Even though the currents are tough in the Gulf of Cambay, the site is only under 120 feet of water. Get me some underwater pictures of structures instead of side scanning sonar and I'll feel more comfortable calling it a city. There is just too much speculation here being pushed as fact so far.All that is left is to date the city. I haven't found any results yet on the piece of wood from the well.
13,000bp? At that time there was a significant amount of R1a influx into India from the Ukraine/Caucasus areas that is still evident today:
So I ask: "Who built the mythical city?" (Atlanteans is not an answer)
Natural selection favors the paranoid
You've got a lot of company Cogs. Did you see all of the photos on page 2? That was good enough for me, along with the other artifacts that have been brought up.
But I agree that it will be awhile. I'm even concerned that the in-situ piece of wood was from close to shore and might therefore be more recent than the deeper structures.
But I agree that it will be awhile. I'm even concerned that the in-situ piece of wood was from close to shore and might therefore be more recent than the deeper structures.
Any occupation site, whether short term or permanent, can only exist where there is water, and it is no coincidence that all ancient cities therefore were contructed close to rivers or other bodies of water.
This virtually guarantees water craft and that any city that was on a tidal, or close to a tidal reach, is now under water.
If man did therefore build any cvilisations before the last ice age we must look beneath the seas.
By now most posters will know my support for Occam's Razor and on that basis this would also explain why so many changes appear to arise without any obvious earlier history.
We are looking in the wrong places!
This virtually guarantees water craft and that any city that was on a tidal, or close to a tidal reach, is now under water.
If man did therefore build any cvilisations before the last ice age we must look beneath the seas.
By now most posters will know my support for Occam's Razor and on that basis this would also explain why so many changes appear to arise without any obvious earlier history.
We are looking in the wrong places!
"The Leopard's Tale", by Hodder, who's been digging at Chatal Hoyuk for years, includes a time chart that show it was one of 12-15 cities in 7th & 8th mil. Most of which were abandoned during an era of chronic drought around 6200 BCE.
Ryan & Pitman, "Noah's Flood" suggests that people went North to the shores of the then freshwater Euxine lake. While I agree, recent Iranian digs show small communities, tepe 'whatever' that emerge in this era, but if you count up the evidence of the remains, and then compare that to what shows up in SE Europe, North was where most folks went.
The DNA of wheat reveals that it descended from einkorn still grown in high Taurus mtn pastures. That variety would've done lots better further north, in a cooler and wetter climate.
There was also a linguistic report of a Turkish farming community that still used the earliest Proto-Indo-European agrarian terms.
But then, we had the Great Flood of 5600 BCE. And an Ayran diaspora begins. At the time, the Kara Kum was not desert, but grassland, and there have been found some prehistoric irrigation works in the region.
And we have the tels along the rivers that empty into the West end of the Black Sea. But wherever, this is also the era when Orox began to be used as pack animals in addition to their traditional plowing, meat, & milk. And between the pack trains and the water craft a mercantile empire emerged, not all that different from the Silk Road or the trading cities the Vikings had all the way from Iceland to the Caspian Sea.
And like the American empire now, it had a powerful cultural impact in places where Yankee boots never hit the ground. Confusing the issue as well was the Great Flood.
"Did The Proto-Indo-European Priesthood Commit Treason in the Period of PIE Unity" by Ballantine & Oswald may be out to lunch on many points, but their scholarship is remarkable to track down for us all the common traits in ritual, costume, and myth between the Sanskrit, Germanic, & several other Aryan religions in between.
They know something damn big happened in the middle of the 6th mil because of all the sanctions they report put on the priestly classes. They think somebody dropped the ball, and the Great Flood of the Euxine Basin in 5600 BC, would certainly give that impression.
Now, I dont claim that the Indus did not have a great civilization before the arrival of the Aryans. But Sanksrit is clearly an Aryan language. And it has roots that were not developed in India. But what makes much more sense based on the little archeological evidence that we have, is that Aryan was a lingua franca of this vast trading empire, and it was Aryan merchants who were bringing all kinds of new technologies into India.
which gives us the impression they ran the place, just as future archeologists would think of the global American mercantile empire. At the time, the science of logistics had not been organized well enuf for a great military empire. It was all a network of city states.
The so called "Aryan invasions" were not organized armies. What India & Mesopotamia had was kings using goon squads to exploit the shit out of the peasants. We have an example of the result with Attila, who did not set out to invade the empire, but there was a bad drought on the Steppes, and refugees were piling up along the Danube.
But then, when negotiations failed, folks started coming across, and suddenly all the peasants and slaves saw a chance at new, and possibly better management. The whole power structure falls over like a house of credit cards.
Ryan & Pitman, "Noah's Flood" suggests that people went North to the shores of the then freshwater Euxine lake. While I agree, recent Iranian digs show small communities, tepe 'whatever' that emerge in this era, but if you count up the evidence of the remains, and then compare that to what shows up in SE Europe, North was where most folks went.
The DNA of wheat reveals that it descended from einkorn still grown in high Taurus mtn pastures. That variety would've done lots better further north, in a cooler and wetter climate.
There was also a linguistic report of a Turkish farming community that still used the earliest Proto-Indo-European agrarian terms.
But then, we had the Great Flood of 5600 BCE. And an Ayran diaspora begins. At the time, the Kara Kum was not desert, but grassland, and there have been found some prehistoric irrigation works in the region.
And we have the tels along the rivers that empty into the West end of the Black Sea. But wherever, this is also the era when Orox began to be used as pack animals in addition to their traditional plowing, meat, & milk. And between the pack trains and the water craft a mercantile empire emerged, not all that different from the Silk Road or the trading cities the Vikings had all the way from Iceland to the Caspian Sea.
And like the American empire now, it had a powerful cultural impact in places where Yankee boots never hit the ground. Confusing the issue as well was the Great Flood.
"Did The Proto-Indo-European Priesthood Commit Treason in the Period of PIE Unity" by Ballantine & Oswald may be out to lunch on many points, but their scholarship is remarkable to track down for us all the common traits in ritual, costume, and myth between the Sanskrit, Germanic, & several other Aryan religions in between.
They know something damn big happened in the middle of the 6th mil because of all the sanctions they report put on the priestly classes. They think somebody dropped the ball, and the Great Flood of the Euxine Basin in 5600 BC, would certainly give that impression.
Now, I dont claim that the Indus did not have a great civilization before the arrival of the Aryans. But Sanksrit is clearly an Aryan language. And it has roots that were not developed in India. But what makes much more sense based on the little archeological evidence that we have, is that Aryan was a lingua franca of this vast trading empire, and it was Aryan merchants who were bringing all kinds of new technologies into India.
which gives us the impression they ran the place, just as future archeologists would think of the global American mercantile empire. At the time, the science of logistics had not been organized well enuf for a great military empire. It was all a network of city states.
The so called "Aryan invasions" were not organized armies. What India & Mesopotamia had was kings using goon squads to exploit the shit out of the peasants. We have an example of the result with Attila, who did not set out to invade the empire, but there was a bad drought on the Steppes, and refugees were piling up along the Danube.
But then, when negotiations failed, folks started coming across, and suddenly all the peasants and slaves saw a chance at new, and possibly better management. The whole power structure falls over like a house of credit cards.
Any god watching me hasta be bored, and needs to get a life.
Hi DB, nice post and it's good to see you again. Don't be such a stranger. This is funny because I was intending to PM a friend about Gimbutas today, which fits into a theory that he has.
I have little time because I've involved myself in some outside pursuits this summer, but I think we have to look at "timeline" as much as anything else when formulating theories.
There is no doubt about the Indo-Aryan language diffusion, but at what time did that happen? There has been a recent re-evaluation of long held beliefs about this due to the recent discovery of the mythical Sarasvati river in India. Geologists have determined that it dried up before 1500-1800 BC.
This screws up everything in that the Vedas tell us in the epic poems that the river is drying up and the timeline of that statement makes the Vedas MUCH older than anyone had considered.
The Vedas talk a great deal about the river from very early in their long writing. In fact, the goddes Sarasvati is part of their creation story, which at the end, she was turned into a river.
http://www.lotussculpture.com/sarasvati.htm
A long time ago. it seems, I started a thread about Abram/Abraham/Brahma that suggests that the tale of Abraham and Sarai from the Bible is a transplant of the Brahma and Sarasvati tale.
I think you're right in what you say DB, but timelines are more distant than what we thought.
Criticism is welcome.
I have little time because I've involved myself in some outside pursuits this summer, but I think we have to look at "timeline" as much as anything else when formulating theories.
There is no doubt about the Indo-Aryan language diffusion, but at what time did that happen? There has been a recent re-evaluation of long held beliefs about this due to the recent discovery of the mythical Sarasvati river in India. Geologists have determined that it dried up before 1500-1800 BC.
This screws up everything in that the Vedas tell us in the epic poems that the river is drying up and the timeline of that statement makes the Vedas MUCH older than anyone had considered.
The Vedas talk a great deal about the river from very early in their long writing. In fact, the goddes Sarasvati is part of their creation story, which at the end, she was turned into a river.
http://www.lotussculpture.com/sarasvati.htm
A long time ago. it seems, I started a thread about Abram/Abraham/Brahma that suggests that the tale of Abraham and Sarai from the Bible is a transplant of the Brahma and Sarasvati tale.
I think you're right in what you say DB, but timelines are more distant than what we thought.
Criticism is welcome.
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Rokcet Scientist
Impressive numbers. But how about some substantiation of 'm?
What is that 13,000BP age based on?
So, from the foregoing it is very evident the prehistoric civilization that matured and developed in the present day Gulf of Cambay was the forerunner and model to the subsequent advanced Harrapan civilization known to history. This wonderful twin prehistoric metropolis of Cambay lasted from about 13000 BP to about 3000 BP making it the most ancient and largest city civilization not only in Asia but in the entire world.
What is that 31,000BP age based on?
It is seen to be at least 7500 years older than the oldest Mesopotamian city civilization. However strong evidence supports the presence of humans from at least 31000 BP who were evolving and developing and formed a great hitherto unknown civilization that were submerged by the flood, giving credence to local and global flood myths
Who are you asking R/S? Me or the guy who wrote the article? I have posted links substantiating Vedic culture to 7,000 BC. This author goes much further.Impressive numbers. But how about some substantiation of 'm?
My posts are right here in the forum. You've been gone for over a year. Take a breathe or two and catch up.