Appreciate that post R/S.
It perfectly illustrates the big problem with english.
Most other languages, when they import a foreign word, will adjust the spelling of the word to fit within the lexigraphical context of their language. For example "fon" instead of "phone". English, for some reason, keeps the original spelling, and so after hundreds of years you end up with a lexigraphical nightmare and one of the most difficult languages on earth to learn. (or so I'm told).
Pokotia Monolith
Moderators: MichelleH, Minimalist, JPeters
Hello gentlemen
According to the Department of Linguistics at the University of Hawa'ai, Putaki (who is appealed to in the inscription on the monolith) could be derived from Munda, the language of the indigenous Indians on the eastern side of India pre Aryan invasion (so-called).
In Munda, 'Putaki' has the power to restore life - surely the attributes of a divine being?
Here's the link to the Munda dictionary: http://www.ling.hawaii.edu/faculty/stam ... ries/Korku
This is from Wikipedia:
The Munda languages are a language family spoken by about nine million people in eastern India and Bangladesh. They constitute a branch of the Austroasiatic language family, generally placed in opposition to the Mon-Khmer languages of Southeast Asia, which means they are distantly related to Vietnamese. The origins of the Munda languages are not known, though it is generally thought that they are autochthonous languages of eastern India. Ho, Mundari and Santali are notable languages of this group.
Munda languages influenced other Indian languages like Sanskrit and the Dravidian languages, and were in turn strongly affected by these languages. The family is generally divided into two branches: North Munda, spoken in the Chota Nagpur Plateau of Jharkhand, Bengal, and Orissa, and South Munda, spoken in central Orissa and along the border between Andhra Pradesh and Orissa. However, it is widely suspected that this is an oversimplification.
North Munda, of which Santali is the chief language, is the more important of the two groups; its languages are spoken by about nine-tenths of Munda speakers. After Santhali, the Mundari and Ho languages rank next in number of speakers, followed by Korku and Sora. The remaining Munda languages are spoken by small, isolated groups of people and are little known.
Characteristics of the Munda languages include three grammatical numbers (singular, dual, and plural), two genders (animate and inanimate), a distinction between inclusive and exclusive first person plural pronouns, and the use of either suffixes or auxiliaries to indicate tense. In Munda sound systems, consonant sequences are infrequent except in the middle of a word. Other than in Korku, where syllables show a distinction between high and low tone, accent is predictable in the Munda languages.
According to the Department of Linguistics at the University of Hawa'ai, Putaki (who is appealed to in the inscription on the monolith) could be derived from Munda, the language of the indigenous Indians on the eastern side of India pre Aryan invasion (so-called).
In Munda, 'Putaki' has the power to restore life - surely the attributes of a divine being?
Here's the link to the Munda dictionary: http://www.ling.hawaii.edu/faculty/stam ... ries/Korku
This is from Wikipedia:
The Munda languages are a language family spoken by about nine million people in eastern India and Bangladesh. They constitute a branch of the Austroasiatic language family, generally placed in opposition to the Mon-Khmer languages of Southeast Asia, which means they are distantly related to Vietnamese. The origins of the Munda languages are not known, though it is generally thought that they are autochthonous languages of eastern India. Ho, Mundari and Santali are notable languages of this group.
Munda languages influenced other Indian languages like Sanskrit and the Dravidian languages, and were in turn strongly affected by these languages. The family is generally divided into two branches: North Munda, spoken in the Chota Nagpur Plateau of Jharkhand, Bengal, and Orissa, and South Munda, spoken in central Orissa and along the border between Andhra Pradesh and Orissa. However, it is widely suspected that this is an oversimplification.
North Munda, of which Santali is the chief language, is the more important of the two groups; its languages are spoken by about nine-tenths of Munda speakers. After Santhali, the Mundari and Ho languages rank next in number of speakers, followed by Korku and Sora. The remaining Munda languages are spoken by small, isolated groups of people and are little known.
Characteristics of the Munda languages include three grammatical numbers (singular, dual, and plural), two genders (animate and inanimate), a distinction between inclusive and exclusive first person plural pronouns, and the use of either suffixes or auxiliaries to indicate tense. In Munda sound systems, consonant sequences are infrequent except in the middle of a word. Other than in Korku, where syllables show a distinction between high and low tone, accent is predictable in the Munda languages.
I don't think she's frightened Min. In fact, I don't think she's remotely worried.Minimalist wrote:Don't frighten the newbies, R/S.
Too bad Arch is gone...he could have a stroke shrieking about pagan goddesses.
Nice to see you back Ishtar. We have some other nice ladies that post here - just not often enough - so don't feel alone.
Thanks for that post. Very interesting. I'll think about that a bit and comment a little later.
Along the lines of "life," or "restoring life":Ishtar wrote:
In Munda, 'Putaki' has the power to restore life - surely the attributes of a divine being?
The Pokatia Monolith 'wears' a 'belt,' that features a rather large round 'buckle' -- situated right over where a person's navel would be. IMHO, this symbolizes the Earth, the navel of the Earth. And more importantly, the round buckle represents the sun -- which we all know many cultures have worshipped.
Again imo, the symbolizm depicted on the monolith have been intentionally downplayed since its discovery. This due to a desire by some investigators to lay (quite possibly correct) claim to the earliest known writing system known in the Americas.
I may still have a better image of the sun-belt in my home computer.
Good point, Effigy.
The other factor is that if orthodoxy got the faintest whiff that it might be Indian, they'd have absolutely no motivation to go any further. The only academic types remotely capable of translating this Indic language are the Indologist linguists who believe that the Munda were 'ignorant savages' who were 'civilised by the more sophisticated invading Aryans'.
They wouldn't really be able to face the fact that these ancient, indigenous Indians actually had a culture and religious beliefs to rival the Aryans' own and what's more, were sea farers....meaning they had navigation, meaning they had astronomy, meaning they had maths...I'm sure you get my drift.
The other factor is that if orthodoxy got the faintest whiff that it might be Indian, they'd have absolutely no motivation to go any further. The only academic types remotely capable of translating this Indic language are the Indologist linguists who believe that the Munda were 'ignorant savages' who were 'civilised by the more sophisticated invading Aryans'.
They wouldn't really be able to face the fact that these ancient, indigenous Indians actually had a culture and religious beliefs to rival the Aryans' own and what's more, were sea farers....meaning they had navigation, meaning they had astronomy, meaning they had maths...I'm sure you get my drift.
Ishtar of Ishtar's Gate and the Hanging Gardens of Babylon.
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Forum Monk
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Sorry, Ishtar - I'm not really finding anything corroborating the East India/Bangladesh connection you suggest. I have scoured sources today. Besides the direct Sumerian connection, it has also been suggested there is an Olmec connection (which again points back to a possible Sumerian connection) and a few people have proposed a Polynesian connection. Can you link your Munda speaking people to Mesopotamian or African ancestry or have you any examples of the kinds of scripts or pictograms they used for writing?
IMO opinion, one must examine more that the lexigraphical similarity of the name Pokotia/Putaki/Potaki or however it is rendered in modern english. One must examine the head gear, the general design of the statue, the materials and methods used to construct it, and determine if the writing was engraved at that time or a later date.
Strange that the thing is largely ignored and I doubt we can give more opinions without seeing more information.
IMO opinion, one must examine more that the lexigraphical similarity of the name Pokotia/Putaki/Potaki or however it is rendered in modern english. One must examine the head gear, the general design of the statue, the materials and methods used to construct it, and determine if the writing was engraved at that time or a later date.
Strange that the thing is largely ignored and I doubt we can give more opinions without seeing more information.
Last edited by Forum Monk on Thu Apr 26, 2007 1:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Minimalist
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the Munda were 'ignorant savages' who were 'civilised by the more sophisticated invading Aryans'.
I thought that whole "Aryan Invasion" thing had been pretty well dismissed?
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.
-- George Carlin
-- George Carlin
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Forum Monk
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It is absolutely possible they were skilled in many "sciences". Most sea-faring cultures leave their impact, however. For example, Phoenician influence is seen all over the Mediterranean and in ancient Phonecia you find artifacts and items that are from other locales. This is because they were carried back by sea-faring Phoenicans.Ishtar wrote:...what's more, were sea farers....meaning they had navigation, meaning they had astronomy, meaning they had maths...I'm sure you get my drift.
You should be able to point to their influence all over southeast asia, the pacific islands, australia, etc. as well as many western locales.
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Forum Monk
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A culture that skilled can't help but leave an impact among their less knowledgable neighbors, Digit. Unless they were stealthy in their moves and tried to stay hidden. Advanced cultures are usually elevated to 'god'-like status.Digit wrote:Conversely Monk if they leave no impact we probably wouldn't know about them.
Wow - Ishtar revived this thread yesterday and a productive discussion broke out. Fantastic.
I would add, at this point, that if we entertain the idea that people speaking a proto-language from northern Africa, Sumeria, India, travelled to South America, there should be some evidence of early oceanic travel somewhere.
Discarding the notion that ships of steel existed, we know that they would have been made of organic material, and long gone by now. But evidence of "port" cities would remain.
Regarding the Aryan Invasion theory, Ishtar, please check out the "Indus Valley Civilization" thread. While it may be true that the language is connected to some "mother tongue", it seems equally likely that the diffusion travelled from India.
I would add, at this point, that if we entertain the idea that people speaking a proto-language from northern Africa, Sumeria, India, travelled to South America, there should be some evidence of early oceanic travel somewhere.
Discarding the notion that ships of steel existed, we know that they would have been made of organic material, and long gone by now. But evidence of "port" cities would remain.
Regarding the Aryan Invasion theory, Ishtar, please check out the "Indus Valley Civilization" thread. While it may be true that the language is connected to some "mother tongue", it seems equally likely that the diffusion travelled from India.
Monk, think of Japan before Perry as an example. China effectively walled itself in as well, though much came out of China, most seems to have been brought out by foreigners wishing to advance their own ideas rather than China wishing to influence others.
I don't think any culture has been so much in advance that they acheived God like status till Europeans had acheived a modern tech society.
I don't think any culture has been so much in advance that they acheived God like status till Europeans had acheived a modern tech society.
