thats not what Nat Geo saysHow it arises in the Americas is unknown
https://www3.nationalgeographic.com/gen ... atlas.html
pre clovis america
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marduk
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DougWeller
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No, it doesn't say it's unknown, but then it doesn't say it's known either.marduk wrote:thats not what Nat Geo saysHow it arises in the Americas is unknown
https://www3.nationalgeographic.com/gen ... atlas.html
Unless I missed something. Nonetheless, X in the Americas resembles most closely X in Western Asia, not in Europe.
Doug
Doug Weller Moderator, sci.archaeology.moderated
Director and Moderator The Hall of Ma'at http://www.thehallofmaat.com
Doug's Archaeology Site: http://www.ramtops.co.uk
Director and Moderator The Hall of Ma'at http://www.thehallofmaat.com
Doug's Archaeology Site: http://www.ramtops.co.uk
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marduk
you did miss something
everything
you seem to be getting your information from the A.R.E. handbook
there are two X subclades
Mtdna X1 , north and east africa
Mtdna X2, western Eurasia, near east, caucasus, mediteranean, america (Ojibwa, Sioux, Nuu chah Nulth, Navajo,)
so although it is known that X2 started in the middle east having left africa around 30,000bce and splitting into the two subclades around 15,000 bce after the last glacial maximum the only mystery is that it is not found anywhere in Siberia which is the proposed route of migration along the bearing land bridge into N america
this of course is why the A.R.E. claims it is the haplogroup of the people of Atlantis which if it proves anything proves that they haven't got a fucking clue what theyre talking about
there is an extent theory that explains very well why there is no trace of it in Siberia and it also explains why it manages to get to America in a very short space of time
but I'm sure Doug can tell you all about that
right Doug ?
everything
you seem to be getting your information from the A.R.E. handbook
there are two X subclades
Mtdna X1 , north and east africa
Mtdna X2, western Eurasia, near east, caucasus, mediteranean, america (Ojibwa, Sioux, Nuu chah Nulth, Navajo,)
so although it is known that X2 started in the middle east having left africa around 30,000bce and splitting into the two subclades around 15,000 bce after the last glacial maximum the only mystery is that it is not found anywhere in Siberia which is the proposed route of migration along the bearing land bridge into N america
this of course is why the A.R.E. claims it is the haplogroup of the people of Atlantis which if it proves anything proves that they haven't got a fucking clue what theyre talking about
there is an extent theory that explains very well why there is no trace of it in Siberia and it also explains why it manages to get to America in a very short space of time
but I'm sure Doug can tell you all about that
right Doug ?
DougWeller wrote:No, it doesn't say it's unknown, but then it doesn't say it's known either.marduk wrote:thats not what Nat Geo saysHow it arises in the Americas is unknown
https://www3.nationalgeographic.com/gen ... atlas.html
Unless I missed something. Nonetheless, X in the Americas resembles most closely X in Western Asia, not in Europe.
Doug
Doug -
your opening statement.
which is precisely the same argument you raised as to whether or not solutreans had seagoing skills.
i have no problem with the americas being populated from both the east and west.
i do have a problem with beringia - or, for that matter - any other "land bridge".
you said something to the effect that passage by boat from asia to america was easily done. so why not from europe?
the genetic evidence that is surfacing is very significant. from what i've read, the geneticists have identified, positively, that there is a traceable european genetic signature which existed in the americas, particularly in the ne. and not from the 1500's, nor asia, either.
once again, leaving the solutrean argument entirely to the side, i urge you to provide evidence of a sequence of clovis points first generated in siberia, and then on the trail to alaska and down south through canada to the snake river in washington, usa, where - for lack of a better description- "ritual internments" of oversize, spectacular clovis points have been discovered with accompanying bundles of mammoth tusk foreshafts and the big red (hematite). one would think that similar internments would also be recorded in first in siberia, and then on the trail to n america. we do have similar internments recorded in europe.
in short, there seem to have been multiple "occupations" of the americas, and the earliest datum line continues to go deeper into the past.
to get back to an earlier point i made, there is, and never will be, "proof". there is only evidence and reasoned argument about same.
keep an open mind.
john
John - you'll find plenty of support here for ancient seafaring - on the Atlantic and Pacific oceans. There has been plenty of discussion here about that very thing.
Contemporary science is in complete disarray on the subject. Earlier thought was that humans crossing the Straits of Gibralter from Africa 500Kya floated on a log. Now an Australian anthropologist has shown evidence of Homo Erectus crossing parts of the Pacific 800,000 yrs ago.
To add a little grist to the mill:
http://www.science-frontiers.com/sf090/sf090a01.htm
I agree that the genetic analyses and also the blood type trail (posted before) are powerful indications of very ancient contact, concentrated around the Great Lakes region. And the Clovis issue is almost breaking out into a shooting war among archaeologists.
I didn't know where you were going at first. So I lend support and you should expect some criticism. No big deal.
Contemporary science is in complete disarray on the subject. Earlier thought was that humans crossing the Straits of Gibralter from Africa 500Kya floated on a log. Now an Australian anthropologist has shown evidence of Homo Erectus crossing parts of the Pacific 800,000 yrs ago.
To add a little grist to the mill:
http://www.science-frontiers.com/sf090/sf090a01.htm
I agree that the genetic analyses and also the blood type trail (posted before) are powerful indications of very ancient contact, concentrated around the Great Lakes region. And the Clovis issue is almost breaking out into a shooting war among archaeologists.
I didn't know where you were going at first. So I lend support and you should expect some criticism. No big deal.
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Minimalist
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And the Clovis issue is almost breaking out into a shooting war among archaeologists.
Spears would be more appropriate.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.
-- George Carlin
-- George Carlin
Beagle wrote:John - you'll find plenty of support here for ancient seafaring - on the Atlantic and Pacific oceans. There has been plenty of discussion here about that very thing.
Contemporary science is in complete disarray on the subject. Earlier thought was that humans crossing the Straits of Gibralter from Africa 500Kya floated on a log. Now an Australian anthropologist has shown evidence of Homo Erectus crossing parts of the Pacific 800,000 yrs ago.
To add a little grist to the mill:
http://www.science-frontiers.com/sf090/sf090a01.htm
I agree that the genetic analyses and also the blood type trail (posted before) are powerful indications of very ancient contact, concentrated around the Great Lakes region. And the Clovis issue is almost breaking out into a shooting war among archaeologists.
I didn't know where you were going at first. So I lend support and you should expect some criticism. No big deal.
beagle -
criticism, schmiticisim. the folks that blazed the pre-clovis trail went through far worse during the last forty years.
again. by definition there is no "proof".
so to those people who are into "proof", i sincerely hope you will bail out of this forum, forever.
knowledge, understanding, wisdom is not and never will be a static thing.
we all need to look at the vast range of possibilities out there and - as best as we can - put our brains to it.
and by this i mean not ever to force a static definition.
but to recognize that understanding never stops.
j
Beagle wrote:
John - you'll find plenty of support here for ancient seafaring - on the Atlantic and Pacific oceans. There has been plenty of discussion here about that very thing.
Tool Characteristics: Mode II Acheulian industry. Characterized by bifaces (also called 'handaxes'). Assemblages are known from 1.4 MYA at Peninj and Konso-Gardula and appear to have spread out of Africa into the Middle East, China and eventually Europe. Based originally on numerous bifaces found at the site of St. Acheul, France, the term is applied to stone assemblages with large bifacially flaked tools, including bifacial 'handaxes', cleavers and picks. The evolution appears to move from Oldowan core choppers to Early Acheulian 2-dimensional bifaces to elegantly 3-D symmetrical handaxes in later Acheulian periods.
So-called 'Chopper-Chopping Tool' (CCC) industries are also known from the same time period throughout Africa, Asia and Europe. Examples include the Clactonian of northern Europe; the Buda industry at Vertesszöllös, Hungary; and the Zhoukoudian in China. These may reflect a culture different from the Acheulian or simply tool sets having a different function. Infrequent and or crudely flaked bifaces also appear at some non-Acheulian sites such as the African Developed Oldowan and Clactonian.
Seafaring implied, Boa Lesa, Flores, 840±80,000 BP.
Use of soft hammer (bone, antler) for flaking, Boxgrove, 500,000 BP.
Earliest evidence of spears, Schöningen, Germany; Clacton, England,
.....400,000 BP; Lehringen, 120,000 BP; possibly Bilzingsleben 300,000 BP.
http://www.centerfirstamericans.org/mt.php?a=224
John - you'll find plenty of support here for ancient seafaring - on the Atlantic and Pacific oceans. There has been plenty of discussion here about that very thing.
Tool Characteristics: Mode II Acheulian industry. Characterized by bifaces (also called 'handaxes'). Assemblages are known from 1.4 MYA at Peninj and Konso-Gardula and appear to have spread out of Africa into the Middle East, China and eventually Europe. Based originally on numerous bifaces found at the site of St. Acheul, France, the term is applied to stone assemblages with large bifacially flaked tools, including bifacial 'handaxes', cleavers and picks. The evolution appears to move from Oldowan core choppers to Early Acheulian 2-dimensional bifaces to elegantly 3-D symmetrical handaxes in later Acheulian periods.
So-called 'Chopper-Chopping Tool' (CCC) industries are also known from the same time period throughout Africa, Asia and Europe. Examples include the Clactonian of northern Europe; the Buda industry at Vertesszöllös, Hungary; and the Zhoukoudian in China. These may reflect a culture different from the Acheulian or simply tool sets having a different function. Infrequent and or crudely flaked bifaces also appear at some non-Acheulian sites such as the African Developed Oldowan and Clactonian.
Seafaring implied, Boa Lesa, Flores, 840±80,000 BP.
Use of soft hammer (bone, antler) for flaking, Boxgrove, 500,000 BP.
Earliest evidence of spears, Schöningen, Germany; Clacton, England,
.....400,000 BP; Lehringen, 120,000 BP; possibly Bilzingsleben 300,000 BP.
http://www.centerfirstamericans.org/mt.php?a=224
John wrote,
"From app. 17k bc to 13k bc, North America was covered by a continous sheet of ice.
http://www.museum.state.il.us/exhibits/ice_ages/
It looks like land became aviable in the northeast much sooner than the northwest, and the continent was never a total sheet of ice.
Doug wrote
"X in the americas resembles most closely X in western Asia, not in europe."
If the % of X is higher in American populations would'nt that suggest it came out of America into Asia?
"From app. 17k bc to 13k bc, North America was covered by a continous sheet of ice.
http://www.museum.state.il.us/exhibits/ice_ages/
It looks like land became aviable in the northeast much sooner than the northwest, and the continent was never a total sheet of ice.
Doug wrote
"X in the americas resembles most closely X in western Asia, not in europe."
If the % of X is higher in American populations would'nt that suggest it came out of America into Asia?
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marduk
the origins of X are known to be Africa about 30,000 years agoIf the % of X is higher in American populations would'nt that suggest it came out of America into Asia?
it split into two subclades in Eurasia namely x1 and x2 about 15,000 years later around the end of the LGM
X2 is the variant found in american populations
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DougWeller
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John asked me "you said something to the effect that passage by boat from asia to america was easily done. so why not from europe?"
Just look at a map -- a trip by between Siberia and Alaska is not that far. Crossing the Atlantic is much much further and the seas much rougher. And you can at times walk across the Bering Strait on the ice.
When there was a land bridge, it was not always completely inhospitable.
http://www.beringia.com/what.html
"Between two continents on the edge of the Arctic lay the ancient place called Beringia. It was a land of ice, giant mammals and the First People of North America. We live in unusual times. We may think that our climate today is typical but over the past 2 million years, the climate of the northern hemisphere has been dominated by huge ice sheets. During each Ice Age,vast glaciers formed in the Northern Hemisphere, locking up much of the world’s water as ice. Global sea levels dropped as much as 100 – 150 meters as a result, revealing the floor of the Bering Sea and creating a land connection between Alaska and Siberia (shown by the area in green). This land bridge was part of a larger unglaciated area called Beringia.
Glaciers never formed in Beringia because the climate was too dry. Beringia, clothed in the hardy grasses and herbs of the mammoth steppe, was home to the giants of the Ice Age: the mammoth, the giant short-faced bear, the steppe bison, and the scimitar cat. At the height of the last great Ice Age, the most successful hunters of all, human beings, entered Beringia from the Siberian steppes, conquering the last frontier for the human species.
Beringia vanished with the end of the last Ice Age. But parts of this lost land can still be found in northern and central Yukon, Alaska and Siberia."
And see this:
T.G Schurr and S.T. Sherry. 2004. “Mitochondrial DNA and Y Chromosome
Diversity and the Peopling of the Americas: Evolutionary and Demographic
Evidence,” Am. J. of Human Biology 16: 420-439.
ABSTRACT: A number of important insight into the peopling of the New World
have been gained through molecular studies of Siberian and native American
populations. While there is no complete agreement on the interpretation of
the mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) and the Y chromosome (NRY) data from theses
groups, several generalizations can be made. To begin with, the primary
migration of ancestral Asians expanded from south-central Siberia into the
New World and gave rise to the Amerindians. The initial migration seems to
have occurred between 20,000-15,000 calendar years before present (cal
BP), i.e. before the emergence of Clovis lithic sites (13,500-12,895 cal
BP) in North America. Because an interior route through northern North
America was unavailable for human passage until 12,550 cal BP, after the
last glacial maximum (LMG), these ancestral groups must have used a
coastal route to reach south America by 14,675 cal BP, the date of the
Monte Verde site in southern Chile. The initial migration appears to have
brought mtDNA haplogroups A-D and NRY haplogroups P-M45a and Q-242/Q-M3 to
the New World, with these genetic lineages becoming widespread in the
Americas. A second expansion that perhaps coincided with the opening of
the ice-free corridor probably brought mtDNA haplogroup X and NRY
haplogroups P-M45b, C-M130, and R1a1-M17 to North and Central America.
Finally populations that formerly inhabited Beringia expanded into
northern North America after the LGM and gave rise to the Eskimo-Aleuts
and Na-Dene Indians.
Just look at a map -- a trip by between Siberia and Alaska is not that far. Crossing the Atlantic is much much further and the seas much rougher. And you can at times walk across the Bering Strait on the ice.
When there was a land bridge, it was not always completely inhospitable.
http://www.beringia.com/what.html
"Between two continents on the edge of the Arctic lay the ancient place called Beringia. It was a land of ice, giant mammals and the First People of North America. We live in unusual times. We may think that our climate today is typical but over the past 2 million years, the climate of the northern hemisphere has been dominated by huge ice sheets. During each Ice Age,vast glaciers formed in the Northern Hemisphere, locking up much of the world’s water as ice. Global sea levels dropped as much as 100 – 150 meters as a result, revealing the floor of the Bering Sea and creating a land connection between Alaska and Siberia (shown by the area in green). This land bridge was part of a larger unglaciated area called Beringia.
Glaciers never formed in Beringia because the climate was too dry. Beringia, clothed in the hardy grasses and herbs of the mammoth steppe, was home to the giants of the Ice Age: the mammoth, the giant short-faced bear, the steppe bison, and the scimitar cat. At the height of the last great Ice Age, the most successful hunters of all, human beings, entered Beringia from the Siberian steppes, conquering the last frontier for the human species.
Beringia vanished with the end of the last Ice Age. But parts of this lost land can still be found in northern and central Yukon, Alaska and Siberia."
And see this:
T.G Schurr and S.T. Sherry. 2004. “Mitochondrial DNA and Y Chromosome
Diversity and the Peopling of the Americas: Evolutionary and Demographic
Evidence,” Am. J. of Human Biology 16: 420-439.
ABSTRACT: A number of important insight into the peopling of the New World
have been gained through molecular studies of Siberian and native American
populations. While there is no complete agreement on the interpretation of
the mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) and the Y chromosome (NRY) data from theses
groups, several generalizations can be made. To begin with, the primary
migration of ancestral Asians expanded from south-central Siberia into the
New World and gave rise to the Amerindians. The initial migration seems to
have occurred between 20,000-15,000 calendar years before present (cal
BP), i.e. before the emergence of Clovis lithic sites (13,500-12,895 cal
BP) in North America. Because an interior route through northern North
America was unavailable for human passage until 12,550 cal BP, after the
last glacial maximum (LMG), these ancestral groups must have used a
coastal route to reach south America by 14,675 cal BP, the date of the
Monte Verde site in southern Chile. The initial migration appears to have
brought mtDNA haplogroups A-D and NRY haplogroups P-M45a and Q-242/Q-M3 to
the New World, with these genetic lineages becoming widespread in the
Americas. A second expansion that perhaps coincided with the opening of
the ice-free corridor probably brought mtDNA haplogroup X and NRY
haplogroups P-M45b, C-M130, and R1a1-M17 to North and Central America.
Finally populations that formerly inhabited Beringia expanded into
northern North America after the LGM and gave rise to the Eskimo-Aleuts
and Na-Dene Indians.
Doug Weller Moderator, sci.archaeology.moderated
Director and Moderator The Hall of Ma'at http://www.thehallofmaat.com
Doug's Archaeology Site: http://www.ramtops.co.uk
Director and Moderator The Hall of Ma'at http://www.thehallofmaat.com
Doug's Archaeology Site: http://www.ramtops.co.uk
https://www3.nationalgeographic.com/gen ... atlas.html
"The real controversy surrounding haplogroup X is its place as one of the 5 haplogroups found in the indigenous peoples of the Americas, where it is found exclusively in North America at varying frequencies.
Does EXCLUSIVELY mean not in africa?
"In the Ojibwa from the great lakes region it is found around 25 %
Are these the guys with the blue eyes and viking nose?
"The real controversy surrounding haplogroup X is its place as one of the 5 haplogroups found in the indigenous peoples of the Americas, where it is found exclusively in North America at varying frequencies.
Does EXCLUSIVELY mean not in africa?
"In the Ojibwa from the great lakes region it is found around 25 %
Are these the guys with the blue eyes and viking nose?
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Minimalist
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I still have problems with the racial diversification issue. If Out of Africa started 65,000 YBP it would have taken a while to spread to the rest of the planet. Just for the sake of argument let's say that HSS spread to final contact with HNS in southern Spain 24,000 years ago. It just does not seem like enough time to develop separate races.
What am I missing?
What am I missing?
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.
-- George Carlin
-- George Carlin
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DougWeller
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Well, for a start, what is a race? I'd argue that it is basically a sociological concept, not a physical one.Minimalist wrote:I still have problems with the racial diversification issue. If Out of Africa started 65,000 YBP it would have taken a while to spread to the rest of the planet. Just for the sake of argument let's say that HSS spread to final contact with HNS in southern Spain 24,000 years ago. It just does not seem like enough time to develop separate races.
What am I missing?
I'd also argue that there was plenty of time to develop different skin tones, heights, etc.
Doug Weller Moderator, sci.archaeology.moderated
Director and Moderator The Hall of Ma'at http://www.thehallofmaat.com
Doug's Archaeology Site: http://www.ramtops.co.uk
Director and Moderator The Hall of Ma'at http://www.thehallofmaat.com
Doug's Archaeology Site: http://www.ramtops.co.uk
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marduk