Neanderthal DNA

Digit · Post by **Digit** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 2:50 pm

But was it so hard Beag? Those hunter gatherers who made into the modern era were reluctant to abandon the life style beacause it was easy.
I've seen it suggested that HSN was adopting HSS type tools, if so presumably he used them, and if they worked for HSS should we assume that they didn't for HSN. Logic would suggests that HSN would not have adopted them if they had not worked.
I have an uncomfortable feeling that one day it will be accepted that we are a hybrid with HSN and the experts will be busy explaining to us why they weren't wrong. History in that at least is on my side I think.

Beagle · Post by **Beagle** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 3:22 pm

The Neandertals who were living in northern Europe during Ice Age extremes had it rough. Others lived as far south as Israel. So it depends on where and when HNS lived if you're imagining how easy or difficult life may be.

Interesting about the tools. HNS adopted various things from HSS, and others he didn't. So he showed a preference about that. When these two people met they probably exchanged a lot of things - including genes IMO.

Digit · Post by **Digit** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 3:40 pm

Beag, that somes up as logical approach as I think is possible with the information available at this time. Too often people go off into never never land without stopping to consider what life was actually like. One of the greatest advances in the discipline in recent years has been to actually try some of the ideas for practical results.
One of my favourites was the Deer antler 'Baton', I used a similar tool many times when I was younger, but the experts all knew better than the layman.

Post by **Minimalist** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 4:13 pm

Bruce wrote:http://www.smithsonianmag.com/issues/20 ... erthal.php

The results, along with those of subsequent studies, indicated that Neanderthals contributed little, if any, DNA to modern humans. Instead, they appear to have been displaced by modern humans—the taller, more graceful creatures with round skulls and prominent chins who first appear in the fossil record in eastern Africa about 200,000 years ago. The Neanderthals retreated into more remote parts of Europe before going extinct. Paabo's work means that during the thousands of years that Neanderthals shared the continent with modern humans, there was probably little interbreeding between the two groups. The same thing happened in other parts of the world: archaic populations of humans in Africa and Asia gradually went extinct without leaving an obvious genetic trace.

The club spreading it's propaganda. Is this the same fossil that we have been waiting on? I'm confused

Ah, yes....the world has only tall, graceful people with prominent chins and round skulls today!

Beagle · Post by **Beagle** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 5:25 pm

That's funny Min.

One of my favourites was the Deer antler 'Baton'

I'm not familiar with that Digit. Sounds interesting.

Digit · Post by **Digit** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 7:07 am

'Spear straighteners' Beag! When they were first recovered the the experts couldn't work out what they were for, and there was no way they were going to ask the peasants!
In Britain they have been used for generations to straighten, or bend, wood and I've even used one to bend copper and lead pipe.
The French recovered the first ones and their suggested uses was horse harness, this before the horse was supposed to have been domesticated, and eventually they listed them as Baton de Commandement because of their supposed likeness to field marshall's batons.

Charlie Hatchett · Post by **Charlie Hatchett** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 7:45 am

http://www.mn.nrcs.usda.gov/news/featur ... logy1.html

Clovis foreshafts and a shaft straightener.

Digit · Post by **Digit** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 9:17 am

Loved the comment ' the Clovis culture lasted only 300 to 500 hundred years'. Eh?
On that basis any future archeologist noting the demise of the steam locomotive will probably assume an invasion by a more powerful group or the extiction of the 'Loco' culture.
Spare me please?

Beagle · Post by **Beagle** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 9:32 am

'Spear straighteners' Beag!

Thank you Digit. I am familiar with that after all but not with the term "deer antler baton".

Cognito · Post by **Cognito** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 11:28 am

Deer antler batons:

http://www.ou.edu/cas/archsur/OKArtifacts/knapping.htm

These were eventually the tool of choice for pressure flaking.

Beagle · Post by **Beagle** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 11:32 am

Thanks Cogs !

Digit · Post by **Digit** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 11:36 am

Because so many archeologists are academics they repeatedly end up with egg on faces when a simple trial of some of their ideas would lend credence to their ideas or show that they are wrong. The 'Batons' is a classical case. Some have suggested that, some at least of the batons, were horse harness. Has anybody heard of anyone trying the idea out?

Cognito · Post by **Cognito** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 1:52 pm

Because so many archeologists are academics they repeatedly end up with egg on faces when a simple trial of some of their ideas would lend credence to their ideas or show that they are wrong. The 'Batons' is a classical case. Some have suggested that, some at least of the batons, were horse harness. Has anybody heard of anyone trying the idea out?

I doubt that many have even tried flintknapping. How else can you identify a tool assemblage while out in the field? Kneel and then attempt to strike off some flakes for forming. And believe me ... flintknappers didn't run around in the nude (as artists' project) for good reason. Those flints are flying everywhere!

Charlie Hatchett · Post by **Charlie Hatchett** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 5:27 pm

Deer antler batons:

http://www.ou.edu/cas/archsur/OKArtifacts/knapping.htm

These were eventually the tool of choice for pressure flaking.

Apparently at a very early date. Check out these suckers, found locally, with a nice, dense coating of carbonate:

Beagle · Post by **Beagle** » Thu Dec 21, 2006 10:07 pm

http://www.york.ac.uk/admin/presspr/pre ... rthals.htm

Dr Bastir, who was based in the functional morphology and evolution research unit of HYMS (fme) for the last two years, analysed the mandibles of Neanderthals discovered at El Sidrón. The analysis revealed north–south variations, with southern European Neanderthals showing broader faces with increased lower facial heights. The research findings are published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (

From todays news:

Archaeologica.org

Neanderthal DNA

Flintknapping

Flintknapping