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Charlie Hatchett · Post by **Charlie Hatchett** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 12:37 pm

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Post by **Minimalist** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 1:06 pm

I don't see much in the way of carbonate on that one.

Beagle · Post by **Beagle** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 1:18 pm

That fragment looks to me like its' got the hallmarks of Clovis point to it. No way to tell for sure unless you run across the bottom half.

That would account for the lack of carbonate, and it would only make sense that later Clovis hunters would have passed by there at some point.

My guess.

Charlie Hatchett · Post by **Charlie Hatchett** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 1:32 pm

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Charlie Hatchett · Post by **Charlie Hatchett** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 1:36 pm

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Post by **Minimalist** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 1:39 pm

But if the carbonate is really part of the dating process you wouldn't expect an actual Clovis piece to show it, would you?

Charlie Hatchett · Post by **Charlie Hatchett** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 1:40 pm

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Charlie Hatchett · Post by **Charlie Hatchett** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 2:14 pm

http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.co ... %20165.jpg

PreClovis Iron Artifact 4- Dorsal View- Romeo-Igl

http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.co ... %20166.jpg

PreClovis Iron Artifact 4- Ventral View- Romeo-Igl

http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.co ... %20167.jpg

PreClovis Iron Artifact 4- Lateral View- Romeo-Igl

One thing I've noticed about these flat pieces is the dorsal sides always have grooves protruding upwards, apparently from grooving the molds. I wonder if this was necessary for separating the piece from the mold?

Post by **Minimalist** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 3:18 pm

How big is that piece?

Charlie Hatchett · Post by **Charlie Hatchett** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 3:28 pm

My bad. About 3.5". The knife is about 2.125 inches.

Are you able to make out the groove cast on the dorsal side?

http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.co ... %20165.jpg

And this one:

http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.co ... %20136.jpg

And then these:

http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.co ... t%2012.jpg

http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.co ... t%2097.jpg

Any modern explanation you can think of?

Charlie Hatchett · Post by **Charlie Hatchett** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 3:39 pm

Monk, I'd love to have your input.

Post by **Minimalist** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 4:03 pm

I don't know enough about metallurgy to be able to hazard a guess.

I'm trying to figure out what you would use a small iron plate for.

Forum Monk · Post by **Forum Monk** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 6:38 pm

The interesting thing I notice about the bottom pieces which you displayed before, is the appearance of a bird effigy. Although there is still a very good possibility my mind wants to see a bird. (our brains are just wired to make sense from minimal visual information). I have also looked carefully at some believed effigy pieces being pulled out of other sites in Ohio (see Allan Day's site and links). So ritual pieces could be one explanation.

The upper piece, with the groove is a mystery. I'll see if I can find some ideas.

Charlie Hatchett · Post by **Charlie Hatchett** » Tue Mar 27, 2007 4:42 am

Forum Monk wrote:The interesting thing I notice about the bottom pieces which you displayed before, is the appearance of a bird effigy. Although there is still a very good possibility my mind wants to see a bird. (our brains are just wired to make sense from minimal visual information). I have also looked carefully at some believed effigy pieces being pulled out of other sites in Ohio (see Allan Day's site and links). So ritual pieces could be one explanation.

The upper piece, with the groove is a mystery. I'll see if I can find some ideas.

The second piece also has a groove, which is not as readily apparent from the photo. I'll see if I can find another photo. I've, for the most part, held off on talking about the effigies, though I do agree with Alan Day. Some preClovis people were into making effigies of birds, people, elephants etc...Birds are particularly dominant.

For those of ya'll interested in potential preClovis artwork, here's Alan's website:

http://www.daysknob.com/

Charlie Hatchett · Post by **Charlie Hatchett** » Tue Mar 27, 2007 4:51 am

Here's photos of that second piece:

http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.co ... %20138.jpg

PreClovis Iron Artifact 3- Lateral View- Lima-Igl

The groove is just to the right of the knife, where the metal thickens.

http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.co ... %20136.jpg

PreClovis Iron Artifact 3- Dorsal View- Lima-Igl