Archaeologica.org

Ahh, sorry. I don't think they point to anything now though.

The logical answer to your point Min must be either a common heritage or the adoption of the info from one culture by another. Some constellations certainly require a stretch of imagination that's for sure.

Forum Monk wrote: To coin a phrase, "not so fast slippery" girl.

Hi FM

Glad you could come on!

OK, I take your point, but you've got to admit that there's enough uncertainty for us to conclude that they could have known about it. It's just that we can't prove it.

And what's wrong with using what you call 'numerical gymnastics' to prove something. It's called mathematics, FM. It's a science. I get accused often enough of being unscientific!

And how else are we going to prove it otherwise? Most of this knowledge was transmitted via a secret, oral tradition. What was eventually writtten down got destroyed, mainly by Christians.

2. You have not shown that the constellations of the zodiac we know today existed 2-3000 B.C.

No, that's not true. The Rig-veda records the constellations. They're known as nakshatras. They also have astrology and the poe, but there is no actual Zodiac written or drawn. However, they were definitely practising astrology. There is no doubt of that.

Digit once again has hit the nail on the head. The recognition of precession takes a very long time with carefully documented records maintained over many generations.

The Vedics had star books called the Surya Siddhantha with sightings going back to 8,000 BC. But like everything else, it's been conservatively dated.

Hipparchus was the first to explain it (or so it seems) but I will grant you, he may not have been the first to recognize something going on. So while I do not rule the possibility that it was seen, and perhaps (a big perhaps) measured, there remains a lack of certainty. The mere fact that a culture aligned a temple to the stars in my opinion, means they did not understand that inside of 100 years that temple would no longer be aligned due to precession. This is one important reason why I believe they did not know it.

I think there' s something to be said for them knowing it, and then forgetting it for some reason or another. As the article I just posted says, the Babylonians got it from the Sumerians but didn't understand it.

It wasn't Christians who burned the library of Alexandria, one of the greatest acts of vandalism in man's history IMO.

Beagle is right. The egptians aligned to the cardinal points. As for the shafts, Bauval's supposed alignment occurs when you "crank" back the celestial clock to about 12500 year before present. Supposedly, during that time period, the angles of the shafts were such and precession had moved Orion to a such a position that key stars would pass the shaft openings at certain hours of the night.

Unfortunately, however, the shafts are not straight. They bend and change angles as the progress outward and they have those little brass doors blocking them off. Their purpose remains a mystery.

The Sphinx Lion? Early egypt recognized stars around todays Leo as a dog. So if the Sphinx is indeed supposed to be a Lion, then maybe the stellar association is not valid. On the other hand, maybe the sphinx is a dog!

You have asked a very valid question Beagle. How WOULD a culture demonstrate knowledge of precession?

How do you align to cardinal points without a compass Monk?

Digit wrote:It wasn't Christians who burned the library of Alexandria, one of the greatest acts of vandalism in man's history IMO.

Yeah...actually they did.

Encyclopedia Britanica says that the Alexandrian Library had, in fact, been destroyed much earlier, in the fourth century A.D, long before the advent of Islam: "The library survived the disintegration of Alexander’s empire (first century BC) and continued to exist under Roman rule until the third century AD."3 The truth is that one half of this library was burnt by Julius Caesar in 47 BC. In the third century, Alexandria came under the domination of Christians. At another place the same work states that, "The main museum and library were destroyed during the civil war of the third century AD and a subsidiary library was burned by Christians in AD 391."4

Phillip K Hitti states that the story "is one of those tales that make good fiction but bad history." He goes on, "the great Ptolemic library was burnt as early as 48 BC by Julius Ceasar. A later one, referred to as the daughter library, was destroyed about AD 389 as a result of an edict by the Emperor Theodosius.

Digit wrote:How do you align to cardinal points without a compass Monk?

The Egyptology Club claims that you hold a plum bob up in the air between two stars and draw a line. In this way, they achieved the astonishing accuracy of the GP and its sisters.

And, no....they have never demonstrated the technique. I think they expect us to accept it on "faith."

Digit wrote:It wasn't Christians who burned the library of Alexandria, one of the greatest acts of vandalism in man's history IMO.

Yes Dig, I know it's controversial.

Some people think that Caesar accidentally set fire to it when he sacked the city.

But there is also this:

Socrates Scholasticus provides the following account of the destruction of the temples in Alexandria in the fifth book of his Historia Ecclesiastica, written around 440:

“ At the solicitation of Theophilus, Bishop of Alexandria, the Emperor issued an order at this time for the demolition of the heathen temples in that city; commanding also that it should be put in execution under the direction of Theophilus. Seizing this opportunity, Theophilus exerted himself to the utmost to expose the pagan mysteries to contempt. And to begin with, he caused the Mithreum to be cleaned out, and exhibited to public view the tokens of its bloody mysteries. Then he destroyed the Serapeum, and the bloody rites of the Mithreum he publicly caricatured; the Serapeum also he showed full of extravagant superstitions, and he had the phalli of Priapus carried through the midst of the forum. Thus this disturbance having been terminated, the governor of Alexandria, and the commander-in-chief of the troops in Egypt, assisted Theophilus in demolishing the heathen temples. "

The Serapeum was part of the Library, and many books and manuscripts were kept there.

Forum Monk wrote: You have asked a very valid question Beagle. How WOULD a culture demonstrate knowledge of precession?

By creating religious iconography to reflect the age?

Nah...that's too simple.

My first reaction to that Min is it isn't possible, but it's something to work on if insomnia strikes.

Ishtar wrote:And what's wrong with using what you call 'numerical gymnastics' to prove something. It's called mathematics, FM. It's a science. I get accused often enough of being unscientific!

When Enron Corp did their gymnast...er...maths they called it fraud, and thats my point. The CFO thought its a science, and the judge said see if you count the number of months you will be in prison.

It kinda works like this:
Given three points and a line between each point to every other point, I have three lines and three angles. Adding a fourth point, increases the number of lines to six and the number of angles to 16. And so for each point I add, the number of lines increases arithmetically and the number of angles geometrically. It doesn't take very many points, then, to have enough angles and lines to find all kinds of "significant" ratios.

This whole precession thing is one of those "absence of evidence" things.

Digit wrote:How do you align to cardinal points without a compass Monk?

BBC at your service -
http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/sci_t ... mids.shtml

Kate Spence's method is one of several I have seen, not to mention using shadows of the sun to find true east and west and so by extension north and south.

Kate's method was controversial or extraordinary (depending on your egyptological bent) because it enabled her to pinpoint the date of construction.

Forum Monk wrote:
It kinda works like this:
Given three points and a line between each point to every other point, I have three lines and three angles. Adding a fourth point, increases the number of lines to six and the number of angles to 16. And so for each point I add, the number of lines increases arithmetically and the number of angles geometrically. It doesn't take very many points, then, to have enough angles and lines to find all kinds of "significant" ratios.

AAAARRGGGGHHHHH!

You knew that would kill me, didn't you FM? You lost me at 'given three points....'

The CFO thought its a science, and the judge said see if you count the number of months you will be in prison.

Ken Lay sure fooled that judge, didn't he. Crafty way to get out of prison!