Archaeologica.org

The traits that you list Roxanne have been raised before, and those who refuse to concede the possibilty of cross breeding have no alternative answer, and these traits were originally limited to those areas with a resonably high population density of HSN.
The clubs usual reponse to awkward problems remains as it always has, ignore them.

Hmmm...I don't see any family resemblences:

Forum Monk wrote:Hmmm...I don't see any family resemblences:

oops...I take that back!

Roxanne wrote:Well, here goes-- into the frying pan. I was following a discussion on a genetic genealogy list and it was suggested that HSS hasn't been out of Africa a sufficent period of time to develop differentiation in the gene controlling skin pigment to have light skin but that Neanderthal had been in northern climes for a long enough period to develop adaptive permanent gene changes in skin color and some idiosyncratic changes in hair color (red, blonde) and eye color blue. The theory was these were Neanderthal traits and therefore had to be an indication of interbreeding.

They argue the genetics of mtdna are not showing Neanderthal as a close relative due to our having such a limited sample of Neanderthal mtdna. Since 90-99% of all modern human mtdna from the same time period went extinct no reason to believe we would be able to luck onto a Neanderthal sample that made it through the big die off.

Does anyone else think there may Neanderthals among us or are us? (My Uncle Ted is a little suspect.)

Does anyone have an opinion about this? They also cited native Inuit as not having made a significant skin pigment change despite a lengthy period in the Artic hence perhaps no interbreeding with Neanderthals.

Roxanne

Hi Roxanne, welcome to the frying pan. The debate about how long it would take an African to develop European features has raged on for a long time. In my opinion, it hasn't been long enough.

We're learning new things little by little. Neanderthal, or at least the one Paabo has examined genetically, was red haired. This makes sense as red hair is the thickest of all the hair strands, and therefore the warmest.

I can see where your common sense is leading you and I share the feeling that interbreeding is the only possibilty that seems reasonable.

Ah yes Beag, common sense! About as rare as Barber's sweat amongst some experts I fear.

Neanderthals are found to be in the Altay Mountains after all. Based on the fact that they have been found in Uzbekistan, it isn't all that surprising.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn1 ... eria-.html

The Altay is not China, but on the way to China along the ancient silk road. That area was a natural conduit from west to east during the Pleistocene. During the late Pleistocene H. sapiens could boat along much of the route, through inland seas and huge glacial lakes. Must have been fun.

The Silk Route might be a goldmine of early man. On the west end, Dmanisi at 1.8ma, in the east Nihewan Basin (sw Beijing) at 1.66ma. probably was a critter trail for a long time. Didn't know it had a lot of water along the way.
Chris

Sabertooth Cat: more bite than bark

Another couple of interesting bits of knowledge about one of HN's contemporary predators, which must have had a considerable influence on his evolution.

Sabercat: Big Teeth, Mild Bite
October 1, 2007

WASHINGTON (AP) -- The ancient saber-toothed cat had some pretty scary dentures, but when it came down to actually biting, well, it was no lion.

In fact, a study of the cat's jaw indicated it has only about one-third the biting power of a modern lion, according to a study in Tuesday's edition of Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

Researchers led by Colin R. McHenry at the University of Newcastle in Australia used computer modeling to calculate the bite force of the cat, Smilodon fatalis.

''For all its reputation, Smilodon had a wimpy bite'' co-author Stephen Wroe said in a statement.

That doesn't mean the saber-toothed cat wasn't a good hunter, though.

''Smilodon was an awesome beast -- and what it lacked in bite force it more than made up for elsewhere,'' Wroe said.

''The sabercat had an immensely powerful body, perfect for wrestling large prey to the ground, and our models show that it needed to do this before trying a bite,'' McHenry said. ''Killing was more likely applied to the prey's throat, because it is easier to restrain the prey this way. Once the bite was done the prey would have died almost instantly.''

NYT article: http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/us/AP-Saber-Tooth.html

Saber tooth was one bad cat!!

And, about the Silk Road, other than the Aral Sea, what other large bodies of water were there? Are there any illustrations or maps? That would indeed be a natural critter highway.

And, about the Silk Road, other than the Aral Sea, what other large bodies of water were there? Are there any illustrations or maps? That would indeed be a natural critter highway.

Beags, at times Lake Mansi (the Ob River watershed) emptied into the Aral Sea which emptied into the Caspian, etc. depending on what was melting at the time.



Here's a map of Lake Mansi during the late Pleistocene:



Notice the proximity of the Altay Mountains. South of the Altai, beginning with a much larger Lake Balkhasch than today, many basins were under water, including parts of Tien Shan and the Gobi. It made a natural pathway east.

Hi Cogs,
As you know, I have done sea level simulations of this area in the past and you are correct. The area of central asia is very low in elevation and it is quite possible that at times of high sea levels (i.e. during glacial melts) much of that plain was underwater. A natural valley runs from the arctic sea to the aral sea and it was an obvious flood plain. Seems to me the area would have been teeming with life: a virtual, prehistoric paradise.

Does anyone else think there may Neanderthals among us or are us? (My Uncle Ted is a little suspect.)

I am not only convinced there are HN amoung us , I am certain I am one!

Long torso, shot arms and legs, pronounced occipital lobe, etc.

Take a look at Inuit people for example Cuda. Just how many generations would it take to get from Cro Magnons physique to theirs.
It makes a hell of lot more sense if they started from HSN's stocky cold adapted body form don't you think?

The area of central asia is very low in elevation and it is quite possible that at times of high sea levels (i.e. during glacial melts) much of that plain was underwater. A natural valley runs from the arctic sea to the aral sea and it was an obvious flood plain.

FM, as you probably know, I am working on the geology of Eurasia during the late Pleistocene. The Ob River watershed is not only huge in area but interesting from the standpoint of what occurs in the region during extreme glaciation such as the LGM.

During the LGM glaciers to the north grew to 3 kilometers in height (nearly 2 miles), closing off the flow of rivers north, sending glacial melt south instead (through the Aral, Caspian and Black Seas). However, more interesting is the fact that land subsidence accounted for 1 of the 3 kilometers. In other words, the Kara and Scandinavian ice sheets depressed land underneath by up to 3000 feet. See Figure 2 in the article below and use some imagination:

http://www.mines.edu/academic/geology/f ... /Altai.pdf

With LGM sea levels being 400 feet below present levels and land shelf being 100-200 feet above sea level today, it is obvious that during the LGM these areas were far below sea level. Land adjacent to the glaciers was also depressed due to proximity and the fact that huge ice lakes had backed up against the glaciers. Since most of the Ob River watershed is not more than 100 feet above sea level today, it wouldn't take too much water and ice to depress that area below sea level also (today much of the area is swamp).

The natural valley that connects Pleistocene Lake Mansi (Ob River watershed) to the Aral Sea is the Turgay Spillway. While a rapid melting of the Kara ice sheet would introduce sea water into Lake Mansi, isostatic rebound could act to close the connection to the Arctic within a few thousand years, sending much of that seawater downstream through the spillway into the Aral Sea under the proper set of circumstances. That is, melt the glaciers, rebound the land underneath, and then give me a quick refreeze like the Younger Dryas. The next set of superfloods would be sending saltwater downstream.

Seems to me the area would have been teeming with life: a virtual, prehistoric paradise.

During times that the Eurasian climate was relatively stable, the area must have been a hunter's paradise. Animal migration paths would have been well known and food abundant. However, those extreme climate flip-flops must have turned the area into a living nightmare suddenly and almost overnight. For example, when the North Atlantic current shuts down, it doesn't take centuries to make an impact, but only three years to turn Eurasia into an icebox.