Problematic Discoveries

The Western Hemisphere. General term for the Americas following their discovery by Europeans, thus setting them in contradistinction to the Old World of Africa, Europe, and Asia.

Moderators: MichelleH, Minimalist, JPeters

User avatar
circumspice
Posts: 1202
Joined: Sat Dec 19, 2009 7:10 pm

Re: Problematic Discoveries

Post by circumspice »

Also, there has been interest by a university in jasper artifacts where the institution has agreed to do a laser analysis of the jasper to date the pieces. I am hoping to have jasper from the mountain site analyzed in this collaboration. I do not yet know the exact type of analysis this entails, only that a laser is part of the process.

Maybe some provenance will be forthcoming.

Springhead 121 19 Jan 2016, 06:50
@Springhead: Dating an object doesn't provide provenance. It provides a range of dates only. Perhaps you should learn the definition of terms that you use so freely?


Provenance | Define Provenance at Dictionary.com

http://www.dictionary.com › provenance...
- noun. 1. a place of origin, esp that of a work of art or archaeological specimen.
"Nothing discloses real character like the use of power. It is easy for the weak to be gentle. Most people can bear adversity. But if you wish to know what a man really is, give him power. This is the supreme test." ~ Robert G. Ingersoll

"Damn with faint praise, assent with civil leer, and, without sneering, teach the rest to sneer." ~ Alexander Pope
Springhead
Posts: 218
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2016 4:50 am

Re: Problematic Discoveries

Post by Springhead »

Circumspice,

Thanks for your guidance on "provenance." I suppose my use of the word has been a bit loose in this instance.
Springhead
Posts: 218
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2016 4:50 am

Re: Problematic Discoveries

Post by Springhead »

[imgImage][/img]

Hello,

The above image is a crystalline rock artifact from the Blue Ridge mountain site. The rock was heavily modified to exhibit a good deal of subject matter to include people, bears, turtle, ape, etc. As the stone is rotated on one side and then the other, the varied subject matter presents itself. The artifact as seen in the image has a tool function with the working end up and a quite comfortable concave chipped surface (visible) available for the thumb.

The primary subject on the image is a praying man looking left. There are numerous other representations visible to include micro imagery. From a slightly different vantage point further to the right the praying man's arms become the jaw of a composition often called the "Homo Erectus shout" with a distended jaw line uncharacteristic of Neandertals but seen in some European examples relating to some jaw deformity. The praying man composition is not unlike a formerly posted tool/sculpture jasper rock and is similar in subject to carvings and paintings on other rocks.

The piece was found in a spring branch streambed under moving water in a gorge/fault/lava flow/four rock formation convergence that has yielded many other artifacts that were found to be provable Pleistocene artifacts by Jack Hranicky. The artifact in the image was found after Jack had examined many of my finds, hence no advised designation of Pleistocene.

I will be working to review the thousands of rocks that are at my home and will post images of good examples.
Tiompan
Posts: 1140
Joined: Tue May 11, 2010 5:13 am

Re: Problematic Discoveries

Post by Tiompan »

Springhead ,
As has been said so many times ; if you can see what you describe in that pic, then you are deluded .
"often called the "Homo Erectus shout" .Often ? . Anyone who calls natural markings a Homo Erectus shout" is equally deluded .
You won't find anyone who knows anything about rock art from any period to agree with you .
Springhead
Posts: 218
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2016 4:50 am

Re: Problematic Discoveries

Post by Springhead »

Hi Tiompan,

I call 'em as I see 'em. Having handled and observed this piece carefully, I find "deluded" a strong word from one who has seen one two dimensional image. My inability to properly define or date these artifacts because they may be unrecognized at this juncture does not give you the leverage to comment on my mental processes or make sweeping statements concerning every rock art expert on the planet. I do welcome your constructive criticism and suggestions.
Tiompan
Posts: 1140
Joined: Tue May 11, 2010 5:13 am

Re: Problematic Discoveries

Post by Tiompan »

Springhead ,
You have ignored the all important qualifier "if you can see what you describe in that pic," that omission may also provide a clue as why you are deluded .
I'll also repeat that you won't find anyone who knows anything about rock art who will agree with you .

Here's an example of genuine rock art discovered a few days ago , the engravings are degraded and the pics are not great quality due to the light , but they are will be obvious to anyone who knows anything about the subject .
Click on the thumbnails or bigger pic .


ooops missed the link ,sorry .
http://www.themodernantiquarian.com/sit ... haidh.html
Last edited by Tiompan on Sun Jul 17, 2016 9:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
circumspice
Posts: 1202
Joined: Sat Dec 19, 2009 7:10 pm

Re: Problematic Discoveries

Post by circumspice »

@Springhead:

The latest pic that you've posted is very clear, so your photography skills are improving.

That said... I looked. I looked hard & I looked at different angles & at different magnifications... I don't see what you described. It's just not evident, it's just not there. Sorry.

By the way...

I second tiompan's question.

"Often called the Homo Erectus shout"...

Often called the Homo Erectus shout by whom? And in what context?

Neandertals?

Distended jawline uncharacteristic of Neandertals?

Jaw deformity?

Is that a reference to?: www.paleolithicartmagazine.org/pagina39.html

Also, as you have stated, Jack Hranicky has only tentatively indicated that a few tools in your vast collection may be provable Pleistocene artifacts. You said that he has never endorsed what you consider to be artwork on any of the tools.

What's going on with all of this?
"Nothing discloses real character like the use of power. It is easy for the weak to be gentle. Most people can bear adversity. But if you wish to know what a man really is, give him power. This is the supreme test." ~ Robert G. Ingersoll

"Damn with faint praise, assent with civil leer, and, without sneering, teach the rest to sneer." ~ Alexander Pope
Springhead
Posts: 218
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2016 4:50 am

Re: Problematic Discoveries

Post by Springhead »

[imImageg][/img][iImagemg][/img][imImageg][/img][imgImage][/img][imImageg][/img][imImageg][/img]

Tiompan,

I will chalk up the "deluded" designation to a subjective and myopic style of criticism. I am afraid I just noticed your link had come up, however for some reason it will not work for me. I'll try again after I finish this post.

Circumspice,

The subject image from the last post has been difficult to photograph in various positions due to images being partially in focus due to a short focal length. It is difficult at best to see what I have described with regard to subject matter from one vantage point. The top right image shows the opposite side of the artifact from the previous post. This shows the Homo Erectus shout orientation with the man looking right. Forming the top of his head is the representation of an ape looking right. At the nape of the ape's neck is a person in profile, a bit smaller than the penny, looking left. There is a more faint profile of a person looking left that encompasses most of the left edge of the rock. The image to the left of this shows the first image rotated clockwise ninety degrees to reveal a bird looking left that goes the length of the rock. The other subject matter less the micro images reveal themselves in form in a like manner manipulating the piece.

The next image down was previously posted. It shows a man on his knees praying looking up and to the right. The upper half of this tool/sculpture is not compositionally unlike the single image from the previous post. This praying attitude has been an interesting and not uncommon subject in the art aspect of these rocks.

Please now go to the last image posted, the larger effigy bear Jack designated as Pleistocene. The images posted bottom to top so they are in reverse sequence. The next image up is the reverse side of the bear effigy and represents a frog looking right. The next image up is the frog side turned 180 degrees. The large crescent in the bottom image (bear nose to paw) was removed with one blow according to Jack. Quite skillful. This crescent in all three images can be interpreted to be the mouth agape in the Homo Erectus shout in three different compositional contexts. This would show the reversed frog image as the head of a person in profile.

Thank you for the excellent link which is quite pertinent to this discussion. I read it, I believe, a good while back. The author stays in close contact with "The Archaeology of Portable Rock Art" site and is often referenced there. His time line on his discussed "shout" sculptures is a deep one, nonetheless I find the "shout" a common compositional subject in finds from the mountain site. Are these Neandertals carrying forward the culture from a deeper past or are these representative of the presence of Homo Erectus, I just do not know. Certainly other possibilities exist with so little known of the assemblage.

The deformed jaw idea was from an article I read about European artifacts that I have been unable to find again but will look for. Apparently the shape of the jaw as shown in the previous post as the arms of the praying man is some specific disease result according to the article. That same jaw line may be seen in the top right image of this post as well.

To clarify the art issue and Jack, he is the one that first showed me the art component in these artifacts. In fact, he did so using the effigy bear in this post as I originally thought it to be a work platform (it may also be one). He is acutely aware of the art aspect of this assemblage, and if it had not been for him I may have not gotten the picture, no pun intended.

Thanks for your responses to my post and the great link. I will try to do another round of images of the artifact of the previous post to show the various subjects as clearly as possible.
Springhead
Posts: 218
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2016 4:50 am

Re: Problematic Discoveries

Post by Springhead »

Hi Again Tiompan,

I just can't get the link to work right now. I'll try again later. Thanks for the thought.
Tiompan
Posts: 1140
Joined: Tue May 11, 2010 5:13 am

Re: Problematic Discoveries

Post by Tiompan »

Springhead ,
What is subjective and myopic is your failure to appreciate that there are no man , made made markings evident on your pics .
Paredoilia is a delusion .

Even if there were man made markings , you have the further problem of attributing a date to them when they could could have been done at anytime .
User avatar
circumspice
Posts: 1202
Joined: Sat Dec 19, 2009 7:10 pm

Re: Problematic Discoveries

Post by circumspice »

Excellent link?

Quite pertinent to this discussion?

Really??? :shock:

OMG... You call a brief article posted in fractured pidgin English an excellent link that's pertinent to this discussion?

On what planet would that be considered excellent?

You're grasping at straws Springhead.

You have not exhibited one iota of evidence in your quest to have your theory accepted. Instead, you throw in any cheesy pseudo-citation that you are able to glean from the Internet. The only organization that supports his interpretation of those rocks is SOTT Net...

'nuff said. :roll:
"Nothing discloses real character like the use of power. It is easy for the weak to be gentle. Most people can bear adversity. But if you wish to know what a man really is, give him power. This is the supreme test." ~ Robert G. Ingersoll

"Damn with faint praise, assent with civil leer, and, without sneering, teach the rest to sneer." ~ Alexander Pope
Springhead
Posts: 218
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2016 4:50 am

Re: Problematic Discoveries

Post by Springhead »

Circumspice and Tiompan,

Thanks again for your comments. I will get a qualified professional for a diagnosis if necessary. Dating, though desirable, requires funding, a problem in my case.

Pidgin English or pig latin, if I can understand it's OK with me. Knowledge and vocabulary/grammar are unrelated. As I traverse the maze of pet theories (to include my own), fossilized subjectivity, comfortably sedentary stances, ethnocentric projections, and institutionally contained powers, I will enjoy the journey and try to learn what I can on the way. It's never the destination, after all, as in these endeavors it can only be approached.

Perhaps organizations are the problem rather than our salvation. Their importance may be related to the time they have existed relative to millions of years of knowledge gathering that occurred without modern protocols. I do appreciate the feedback, however caustic it may seem, but no evidence has been presented to date that would require the towel to be thrown in.
User avatar
circumspice
Posts: 1202
Joined: Sat Dec 19, 2009 7:10 pm

Re: Problematic Discoveries

Post by circumspice »

This subject should be required reading in all archaeological boards & should be part of all archaeological courses...

The first two links point to articles that explore why such frauds are perpetrated & also why they are so readily accepted by a credulous public. The remaining links explore the actual hoaxes & the fallout resulting from the exposure of said hoaxes.

@Springhead: I'm NOT saying that you are perpetrating a hoax. What I'm doing is pointing out the psychology of your apparent intransigence when it comes to even considering that you may be wrong about your personal theories. If you can't ever consider the possibility that you may be entirely mistaken, then we are at a complete standstill in these proceedings.

I rest my case.

http://www.athenapub.com/japhoax.htm

http://www.anonymousswisscollector.com/ ... ities.html



http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/1008051.stm

http://www.newsweek.com/archeology-wave ... and-153959

http://archive.archaeology.org/0101/new ... hands.html

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shinichi_Fujimura

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanes ... ithic_hoax
"Nothing discloses real character like the use of power. It is easy for the weak to be gentle. Most people can bear adversity. But if you wish to know what a man really is, give him power. This is the supreme test." ~ Robert G. Ingersoll

"Damn with faint praise, assent with civil leer, and, without sneering, teach the rest to sneer." ~ Alexander Pope
Tiompan
Posts: 1140
Joined: Tue May 11, 2010 5:13 am

Re: Problematic Discoveries

Post by Tiompan »

Springhead ,
Paredoilia , a delusion , doesn’t need a professional diagnosis .It is clear to all that do not suffer from it .

“no evidence has been presented to date that would require the towel to be thrown in.”
If someone believes that the shapes they see on rocks etc are not natural ,what evidence could be presented that would make them realise they were mistaken ?
Springhead
Posts: 218
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2016 4:50 am

Re: Problematic Discoveries

Post by Springhead »

[imImageg][/img][imImageg][/img]

Above are images of a perfect sphere of topaz approximately one inch in diameter found in one of the NC piedmont sites. The lower image shows the entire sphere, and the upper image details subject matter from within the artifact. This piece was surface collected from a plowed field.

Not to mention the apparent perfection of the shape, a more interesting and confounding aspect is the art work visible in the interior part of the sphere. The subject matter shows various facial representations from profile to front on. The subject matter is of the same nature and compositional style as artifacts found at all seven sites in Virginia and NC. The two major aspects of the topaz sphere are the refinement factor overall coupled with the deep mystery of the technique that allowed the artist to create the imagery within the piece. There is more imagery visible than the detail image demonstrates, but for now the focus of study would be the facial grouping subject matter.

I would be very surprised if this artifact could be reproduced today with unlimited funding.
Post Reply