Roman DNA

[Simon21]

Well, that is a good joke.
The only archaeological problem I have in this region

Is that i don't know where the region is, as I don't know anythng about British geography

simon, you are projecting yet once again

I await the excavation results from Scotland and Ireland.
Rheged, Fortiu (home of the Verturiones?),
and the Dal Riada base camp in Ireland.

But who said you live in the real world? Point proven!

I am pretty sure those excavation results will explain a whole lot to most sensible people.
Whether those excavation results will explain anything at all to you is highly doubtful.

As I say you do not live in the real world. My point is addressed to people with a genuine and sensible interst in archaeology

Except for all of the abandonments, and the re-use of sites by greatly reduced populations.

We do not have population figures but it is certain that there was vastly more people in Southern Britain than in Southern Scotland, and always has been.

The only thing "we" now know is this statment's author's
complete ignorance of the role of Britain in the "politics" of the late Roman Empire.

Towns in the Dark: Urban Transformations from Late Roman Britain to Anglo-Saxon England
28 Jul 2014 by Gavin Speed

Yours for only £34,

Late Roman Towns in Britain: Rethinking Change And Decline2 Jan 2014
by Adam Rogers - only £26

but we know you do not read beyond a Google search, and as for understanding real archaeological reports oh dear

]

Well we can agree on that.
From the text records, it appears that
the early Anglo Saxons simply raped the young girls and boys,
and took them as slaves,
along with anyone else they found of use.
It was ONLY the rest of the local populations that they killed off.

So pretty much like you Americans then
No holocausts are largely a 19th-20th century invention

[circumspice]

@Simon21: Your demonization of Americans is starting to grate on my nerves. Suffice it to say that we all 'get it' that you hate Americans & look down your long Euro nose at us colonials... How about toning down the hatred a bit, eh? It is really irrelevant to the current discussion.

[Simon21]

@Simon21: Your demonization of Americans is starting to grate on my nerves. Suffice it to say that we all 'get it' that you hate Americans & look down your long Euro nose at us colonials... How about toning down the hatred a bit, eh? It is really irrelevant to the current discussion.

You mistake. I have no hatred for Americans, the British or white Australians, SAa or Canadians - what is the point? History doesn't change. But when someone makes stupid irrelevant remarks about a dark-age people some reply is required.

And it gives perspective to remind ourselves that mass murder and genocide are features of our past in a way no ancient people can have contemplated. There was no Auschwitz in ancient Rome, though plenty of killing.

Oh and for the record I am not European (I will assume the reference to nose size is not an anti-semetic comment). I was raised in an area where the local people were disposed of by the simple process of giving them flour laced with strychnine. In fact I think the country itself is generally considered to have conducted one of the ost successful genocides on record, though some claim that the Spanish invasions of the Ameicas top this.

Oh and I do not go around calling people:

"Gay Nazi sheep f******" which insults Gay people and mocks the holocaust.

[Simon21]

Perhaps it is necessary to remind that this is a discussion about acculturalisation. What we think of the process or those who began it is utterely irrlelevant. We speak English, use english forms in our justice system, time keeping etc. Why is this?

Most of us descend froma Christian culture whose real founder boiled his wife to death and slaughtered his own sons. But these facts do not prevent him from being hailed for proclaiming the "Peace of the Church"

The issue here is why do we not speak a version of welsh. Not whether late roman peoples were "nice"

[Simon21]

Ignoring the irelevant and hysterical interventions from a foul-mouthed pamphlet seller who seems to think the perpetrators of the Holocaust were just handy insults let us get back to the issue.

Acculturilisation is importnat because it says a lot about our world view. In earlier centuries (where our Nazi-referencing friend prefers to live) it was common to assume that when another culture blossomed all the former adherents of the old culture had been destroyed.

One sees this most clearly is some of racist nonsense around the Islamic expansion of the 7 and 8th centuries. Apparently a few thousand horsemen from Arabia conquered everywhere from Spain to Iran, then got off their horses and promptly repopulated the whole regions again. This is self evidently idiotic (and comical) yet there are those who take such a Monty Python view of history - the only form of acculturilsation is conquest and genocide - Grondine does, Mark Steyn etc..

Yet this is self evidently not the case. Judo classes in Kazahstan are not the result of Japanese colonisation. Sushi bars in San Franciso are not invasion centres.

The whole issue is far far more subtle. In he case of Britain we do have a real mystery for the religion and langage of the native people (including Latin) seem to have dissapeared entirely.

We can be sure that we are not talking genocide here. There is no archaeological evidence whatsoever. We may look to France where the Franks a far more numerous and ferocious people gave their name to the country, but did not replace the langauge and converted to catholicism mainly to get the romano gauls onside. Both became one people.

Mind you their way of settling family disputes is much open to question:

"Fredegund was jealous of her own daughter, Rigunth, who continually declared that she should be mistress in her place. Fredegund waited her opportunity and under the pretense of magnanimity took her to the treasure-room and showed her the King's jewels in a large chest. Feigning fatigue, she exclaimed "I am weary; put thou in thy hand, and take out what thou mayest find." The mother thereupon forced down the lid on her neck and would have killed her had not the servants finally rushed to her aid."

This bledning of the two peoples happened in Britain too. We know that from points like the King who started the wessex royal house was called Cerdic - a purely British name. The current Queen is in fact a Cerdicinga (person of Cerdic's family)

But what happened to the language and religion? Put simply we cannot say but there are numerous studies going on about linguistic apartheid that might hold some answers. The Normans launched a successful expedition of course, but although English absorbed a lot of Norman words it remained and the Norman language died out.

Part of the reason for posting is to see if anyone knows of similar situations. Russia's conquests in the 17th and 19th centuries have been cited but this seems a bit far fetched,

On thing is absolutely certain Lowland Scotland has no role to play since the people in this area were and remain acculturalised Anglo Saxons and we do not speak Irish.

[Simon21]

Another key figure who can shed light on this area is of course Bede who gave the English people their name.
As has been said one hour's conversation with Bede would be more illuminating than with any other English historian.

Bede used Gildas for his early account of the Adventus but he also used other sources. He names Hengist and Horsa as the early leaders of the Anglo Saxons. But as their names mean horse and mare it is likely we are looking at progenitor gods and not real people. Though it has been pointed out that the name Hengist occurs in Beowulf when someone begin's singng the unknown ballad: The Fight at Finnsburg

[circumspice]

@Simon21: Your demonization of Americans is starting to grate on my nerves. Suffice it to say that we all 'get it' that you hate Americans & look down your long Euro nose at us colonials... How about toning down the hatred a bit, eh? It is really irrelevant to the current discussion.

You mistake. I have no hatred for Americans, the British or white Australians, SAa or Canadians - what is the point? History doesn't change. But when someone makes stupid irrelevant remarks about a dark-age people some reply is required.

Regardless, you had no problem inferring that Americans are genocidal to make your pointed insult to EP because he is American. As I said before, that has no bearing on the subject of archaeology or the current discussion.

And it gives perspective to remind ourselves that mass murder and genocide are features of our past in a way no ancient people can have contemplated. There was no Auschwitz in ancient Rome, though plenty of killing.

That's a bunch of fatuous nonsense. Genocidal massacres have occurred all throughout human history. The only difference is one of scale. Every massacre is worse than the preceeding massacre because:

1. Human populations have continually increased, so more people are available to be slaughtered.
2. Technology has continually improved, so more people can be slaughtered more efficiently.

For the record: each ancient genocidal massacre was the worst the world had seen to date, until the next one that surpassed it. Ad infinitum, up to the present time.

Oh and for the record I am not European (I will assume the reference to nose size is not an anti-semetic comment).

What? I suppose that you've never heard the phrase 'Roman nose' before? Weren't the Romans considered Europeans? Did they not arise in Europe? Since I doubted that you are Italian, being an English speaker, I simply substituted the word Euro for the word Roman. Don't read more into what I say than what's actually posted. I'm rather plain spoken & have no trouble speaking my mind.

I was raised in an area where the local people were disposed of by the simple process of giving them flour laced with strychnine.

Oh... How expedient. No blankets taken from infimaries that had treated measles patients being distributed to the inconvenient local population? Now THAT is expedient... The unfortunate recipients even obligingly spread the contagion further afield, saving the new residents additional effort & expense.

Still... Irrelevant to the current discussion. Genocidal actions made by conquerors all throughout time & all over the world can be discussed till the cows come home & it still wouldn't be relevant to the current discussion. So why waste space on the subject here?

In fact I think the country itself is generally considered to have conducted one of the ost successful genocides on record, though some claim that the Spanish invasions of the Ameicas top this.

Oh and I do not go around calling people:

"Gay Nazi sheep f******" which insults Gay people and mocks the holocaust.

[E.P. Grondine]

Perhaps it is necessary to remind that this is a discussion about acculturalisation.
What we think of the process or those who began it is utterely irrlelevant.

I do not quite understand how we can have a discussion free from facts.
Buy then "discussion" for you is you haranguing us about the virtues of the Anglo Saxons.

We speak English, use english forms in our justice system, time keeping etc. Why is this?

Globally, you could compare the number of Chinese speakers, the number of Spanish speakers, etc.
But clearly the rest of humanity clearly plays no role in your definition of "we"

Most of us descend froma Christian culture
whose real founder boiled his wife to death and slaughtered his own sons.
But these facts do not prevent him from being hailed for proclaiming the "Peace of the Church"

In general, after and during the period the Germanic mercenaries seized control of an area,
they adopted Roman methods of administration,
both to preserve the economies of the areas they had seized
and to legitimize themselves within the Empire.

The accuturalization you need to examine
is the accuturalization of the Anglo Saxons.

That is why the coronation at Hinba is so important,
and why it is important to determine where Hinba was,
and then to excavate it.

But the problem of Anglo Saxon acculturalization is not a problem I'm interested in.
My interests are the PIE language group and recent small impacts.
Now determining exactly where the Anglo Saxons and other Baltic Sea raiders
were at the time of the Kaali impact
and locating any memories they may have had of that impact are not important to you,
but they are of interest to me,
as is the possible destruction of Bazas by impact.

To put it more plainly,
I'm interested in Caledonians, and have little interest in Anglo Saxons.

I usually work in deep time, far earlier than the relatively recent period you have such an intense interest in.

The issue here is why do we not speak a version of welsh. Not whether late roman peoples were "nice"

Before the age of steam,
before Newton,
before the harnessing of water power,
British rationalism had manifested in superior ships and artillery,
and navigation and map making
during the period of colonialism and empires.

But any examination of the facts of that
is beyond your racist views, which manifest in your Anglo Saxon obsession.
Given your views, I could not endorse you for any position teaching in archaeology or history,
and I hope that no one has ever given you the chance to teach anywhere.

The strengths of English as a language were covered in the history of English television series.

All of us are descended from people just trying to get by,
people who worked very very hard just to survive.

[Simon21]

Here's a tip try reading what a person says before commenting.

I tried the reply courteous but sigh someone elses who needs a few lessons

Regardless, you had no problem inferring that Americans are genocidal to make your pointed insult to EP because he is American. As I said before, that has no bearing on the subject of archaeology or the current discussion.

No not regardless simple fact sorry. Suggest you read a history of the Americas some time written by an adult. All colonial societies indulged in genocide, how do you think they got the land?

That's a bunch of fatuous nonsense. Genocidal massacres have occurred all throughout human history. The only difference is one of scale. Every massacre is worse than the preceeding massacre because:

1. Human populations have continually increased, so more people are available to be slaughtered.
2. Technology has continually improved, so more people can be slaughtered more efficiently.

Ah but this seems to contradict what you said earlier.

All human history

includes the US does it not. And the fact remains that death camps are a European idea. Get a book on the holocaust

For the record: each ancient genocidal massacre was the worst the world had seen to date, until the next one that surpassed it. Ad infinitum, up to the present time.

Is that so? So er the Rwandan Genocide which occurred in the 1990s which saw 800,000 die is somehow worse that the Holocaust which saw over 6 million die in the 1940s..Fifty years seperation. I'm guessing you have not been to Yad Vashem or Auschwitz Birkenau or Teblinka. Guess what, I have.

What? I suppose that you've never heard the phrase 'Roman nose' before? Weren't the Romans considered Europeans? Did they not arise in Europe? Since I doubted that you are Italian, being an English speaker, I simply substituted the word Euro for the word Roman. Don't read more into what I say than what's actually posted. I'm rather plain spoken & have no trouble speaking my mind.

Of course you have never everr heard of long noses being a traditional anti semetic slur. Let me give you some advice. Do not go to a jewish section of some American town or Tel Aviv and try this out on them. I am sorry to say your face may well be rearranged.

I've got jewish rels mate I've heard them all.

I also notice you do not comment on Grondine's "Gay Nazi sheep f******" - this is acceptable to you?

I suggest you leave the nasty irrleelvant remarks on someone's physical appearance in the bin

Oh... How expedient. No blankets taken from infimaries that had treated measles patients being distributed to the inconvenient local population? Now THAT is expedient... The unfortunate recipients even obligingly spread the contagion further afield, saving the new residents additional effort & expense.

Is this meant to be funny? It's pretty sick. Murdering a people with strychnine is not "expedient" it is sadistic. Colonial societies including the American one were brutal, ask some of the American nations what they think if you can bring youself to talk to them. They are pretty clear.

Still... Irrelevant to the current discussion. Genocidal actions made by conquerors all throughout time & all over the world can be discussed till the cows come home & it still wouldn't be relevant to the current discussion. So why waste space on the subject here?

Well it is relevant old bean because the old conman tries to make some silly point about the morality of the Anglo Saxons. what is the point of calling them thieves in an era marked by conquests. Who were not thieves? It is ahistorical and pointless.

[E.P. Grondine]

Excuse me, you ignorant asshole -

I covered the Holocaust in depth in my "History of Cosmonautics",
in particular von Braun's use of political prisoners at Dora.

And Hitler killed Slavs as well as Jews.

[Simon21]

Right let us now deal with you

I do not quite understand how we can have a discussion free from facts.
Buy then "discussion" for you is you haranguing us about the virtues of the Anglo Saxons.

I agree. And by facts we mean basic geography and the ability to write in english. If you could master these then your life would be much richer.
Oh and I have not mentioned the virtues of the Anglo Saxons (whatever they are) - that is you trying to find something to say.

Globally, you could compare the number of Chinese speakers, the number of Spanish speakers, etc.
But clearly the rest of humanity clearly plays no role in your definition of "we"

Because we are talking about English speakers like you old fruit. You are an aculturalised Anglon Saxon.

In general, after and during the period the Germanic mercenaries seized control of an area,
they adopted Roman methods of administration,
both to preserve the economies of the areas they had seized
and to legitimize themselves within the Empire.

But you told us repeatedly the German mercenaries wiped everyone out. So who taught them how to be Roman? Ghosts?
Youliterally cannot keep a logical thought in your head for longer than a five year old

The accuturalization you need to examine is the accuturalization of the Anglo Saxons.

Hence the enormous studies devoted to the conversion. Which you have never heard of.

That is why the coronation at Hinba is so important,
and why it is important to determine where Hinba was,
and then to excavate it.

Sorry web trawling again - completely incoherent - the phrase simply does not make sense.

But the problem of Anglo Saxon acculturalization is not a problem I'm interested in.

And is also is beyond your feeble mind

My interests are the PIE language group and recent small impacts.

But I cannot be bothered to actually learn any relevant language so no PIE for me

Now determining exactly where the Anglo Saxons and other Baltic Sea raiders
were at the time of the Kaali impact
and locating any memories they may have had of that impact are not important to you,
but they are of interest to me,

Have I at any time said such contrived rubbish was of any interest?

as is the possible destruction of Bazas by impact.

Oh you were certain a few posts ago. Changing our mind are we?

To put it more plainly,
I'm interested in Caledonians, and have little interest in Anglo Saxons.

To put it more plainly?
How does this comment lead in any way from the one before. Simple incoherence.

Before the age of steam,
before Newton,
before the harnessing of water power,
British rationalism had manifested in superior ships and artillery,
and navigation and map making
during the period of colonialism and empires.

This sounds a bit drunk again.

But any examination of the facts of that
is beyond your racist views, which manifest in your Anglo Saxon obsession.
Given your views, I could not endorse you for any position teaching in archaeology or history,
and I hope that no one has ever given you the chance to teach anywhere.

Well we know you would not have been trusted near a school wouldn't we.

And someone who cites the Nazis is not in a strong position as regards racism are they.

The strengths of English as a language were covered in the history of English television series.

Did you watch it? and I beleive Sesame Street mentioned Scotland at some stage - what more do you need?

All of us are descended from people just trying to get by,
people who worked very very hard just to survive.

[/quote]

Really? Just discovered this truism have you? And here's the thing - some of them were gay, so your filthy attempt to use the word gay as a term of abuse slightly undercuts you and yur faux christianity and views on morality.

All the more reason then to study their cultures without making racist comments eh

[Simon21]

Excuse me, you ignorant asshole -

I covered the Holocaust in depth in my "History of Cosmonautics",
in particular von Braun's use of political prisoners at Dora.

And Hitler killed Slavs as well as Jews.

Oh dear he's losing it now.

Let's be clear do you accept or deny the reality of the Holocaust. Yes or no please

And the Nazis also killed Gays what do you think of this - again simple answer

Sorry just to add many many jews are slavs. Some jews are gay slavs.

[Simon21]

You have to understand that I, like 95% of the population, am far better educated and
seemingly far more intelligent than you.
This is not arrogance as I say most people are far brighter than you
- they have a grasp of basic geography,
they can write basic English
and keep a coherent point going.

They do not get their learning from watching the occasional TV programme
and trawling web sites they do not understand.

They are also better mannered and do not use disgusting language when their stupid fantasies are challenged.

Back to the subject

One of the key points about Bede is that he rarely if ever mentions the Romano British population (or British to be more accurate) that must have lived in the Anglo-Saxon Kingdoms.

Does this mean they had all become Anglo Saxons?

Obviously we cannot know for sure but it is interesting that there was a British Kingdom to his South called Elmet ot Elmetia it is called a Regiuncula or litle kingdom. It's capital was probably at Leeds (Loidis).

So it is possible there were more such states, just Bede and our few sources do not mention them.

As an example of false information we have this:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/201 ... d-univers/

There is information there, but of course the core map itself is based on nothing more than best guesses.

It is also worth mentioning that the Kingdoms of Bernicia and Deira on the Northumbrian Coast and which went to compose the powerful kingdom of Northumbria bear British names. Bernicia could be a reference to the ancient Brigante people (the high people) and Deira the place of the Oak.

The fact the names exist must indicate that there were enough people around to pass them on to any newcomers.

[Simon21]

Of course it must also be realised and most do that the essential history of Britain in terms of its culture takes place in the areas where most british live in the well watered valleys and meadows of the South where it was easier to generate a living and where the majority of British people have always lived.

Consequently the essential acculturalisation took place in the South East, East Anglia and the Southern coast. Certainly not remote areas in Scotland and Wales etc.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Anglo-Saxon-Ki ... axon+books

This incidently is an excellent book and gives full reference to the influence of the Franks in SE England. The role of the Franks in Acculturilisation is of course barely undeerstood.

Interestingly archaeological excavation of early settlement areas gives great prominence to local cemeteries. It seems thatin the early settlement period cemeteries were used to signal the presence of a community and were sighted so they could be seen from some distance away. It also appears that they had route paths through them so the traveller would get some idea of the size of the community he was about to enter.

[Simon21]

Just to be clear this is the sort of risible drivel Grondism considers data (crash of drums).

A group of five year olds would make a better fist of it.

Do note the poor Israeli druzes who are thrust into the North Atlantic. Given their name one might have thought they would have been in Israel. But not so apparently.

The amount of wasted time that went into constructing this poor excuse for a beer mat shows the depth of mental afflition that plagues this area of knowledge.

What the enormous black lines are meant to signify is anyone's guess - the path of a huge drunken snail?